In Defense of Sansa Stark

Sansa Stark must be one of the most hated characters in A Song of Ice and Fire. The vitriol levelled against her is often frightening in its intensity, surpassing that for actually horrific characters like Joffrey and Ramsey Bolton. Her crime? The unforgivable fact that she is a pre-teen girl.

As a massive fan of Sansa, even I must admit that she is difficult to like at first. She’s spoilt and a bit bratty. She fights with her fan-favorite sister and trusts characters who the reader knows are completely untrustworthy. She is hopelessly naive and lost in dreams of pretty princes and dashing knights. She acts, for all intents and purposes, like the eleven year old girl that she is. Most of us were pretty darn unbearable to older people at that age (and that’s fine, because they were also pretty unbearable to us). Robb and Jon, although older than Sansa, are similarly misguided and bratty, with Jon’s constant “poor me, I deserve so much more” attitude at the Wall, and Robb’s clumsy attempts at being the Lord of Winterfell. But these mistakes are only reprehensible to readers when they come from a girl, interested in girly things and making girly mistakes. Because viewers have been taught that “girly” is automatically bad.

I love bad-ass, sword-wielding heroines as much as the next person (Arya and Brienne are two of my other favorite characters in anything ever), but the focus on this sort of female character — the oft-cited “strong female character” — seems to suggest that femininity is still bad, and that women can only be strong by adopting stereotypically male roles and attitudes. There’s nothing wrong with Arya declaring that being a Lady does not suit her and forging her own path, but saying that all female characters must take this attitude is as sexist and dismissive as saying that all female characters must be weak and take a backseat in events. Femininity is not bad, just as masculinity is not necessarily good.

Sansa plays an important role in the narrative, because she shows how societal expectations of women completely screw them over. She believes in everything that her parents and her septa have taught her. She believes in stories, and she believes that the greatest thing she can do is marry the prince (who will, of course, be chivalrous and honorable and handsome and kind) and have his children. She has spent her life in the cold castle of the North, dreaming of stories of tournaments and beauty in the south. Because people want her to be that way. That is how they think the ideal young woman should be. And it almost destroys her. Worse, it brings the reader’s hatred down on her, because even though women are told they are only “good” if they fit into this role, the role itself is seen as weak, manipulative, stupid and generally inferior. It is the Catch 22 of being a woman, both in Westeros and in our own world: no matter what you do, you are criticized, especially if you don’t act like Arya Stark and fight to become “one of the boys.” And so some “fans” of the series declare that they wish Sansa would get raped, a woman’s punishment for daring to act how she has been taught. For daring to act feminine, and making mistakes while doing so.

And all this hatred misses the fact that Sansa is one of the strongest individuals in the entire series. In a world where people drop like flies, in an abusive situation that would break so many people, Sansa survives. Sansa endures. She stays strong, and she never gives up.  As Brienne says to Catelyn, she has a “woman’s courage.” She learns how to play the game. She wears her courtesy for her armor, and she listens, and she adapts, and she keeps her cards close to her chest. She learns how to smile and curtsey and use her words to keep going long after other, older, more experienced players, including her father, are destroyed. But she will not kneel. She will not weaken. She remains strong, and she remains determined, because the North remembers, and her day will come. Her “woman’s courage” keeps her alive and in the game where characters like Arya would not last five minutes.

Most impressive of all, Sansa maintains one key part of her personality that others might dismiss as “weak” or “feminine”: her kindness. She manages to be brave and gentle and caring, despite the trauma she goes through. She shows love and affection to little Robert and to Tommen. She puts herself at risk to save Ser Dontos, using her words and her courtesy to trick Joffrey into doing as she desires. She cares for and calms the people of King’s Landing during the Battle of the Blackwater, despite the fact that she is so young and so inexperienced and few of them have ever done anything to help her. She knows that if she were Queen, she would make the people love her, because she cares about other people, even when her own life is torn apart.

Traditional femininity is not innately inferior. It has its own kind of strength and its own kind of power, and Sansa Stark demonstrates that better than any other character I’ve encountered. She is not fierce or rebellious. She is not ruthless or brutal. But she is strong. She is a survivor. And that should not be dismissed.

219 comments on “In Defense of Sansa Stark

    • Michael , Direct link to comment

      Sansa was my least favorite Stark in the books, but the TV series has shown me that, in fact, she is the strongest Stark. She is the only one that is alone and has lost her freedom. Jon is alone, but he gave up his freedom, as was able to make choices about sex, loyalty, etc. Arya was alone, but she was able to make choices about where to go in Westeros. Sansa could make no choices about her own life, and had no one to support her. I can’t wait until she is the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms (although, that is just a guess, but one I would like to see by the end of the series).

      • corectorobit , Direct link to comment

        Jon did not give up his freedom. His father and Lady stark had him join the watch because she would not care for neds bastard while he was away. And ned couldnt bring his bastard to kings landing. Yes it was something he thought he would like to do. But only before he got there.

        • Mariana , Direct link to comment

          But he could be a desertor with the wildlings, couldn’t he? Maybe not, because he knew they would lose (?) but he could have stayed at their side.
          And it seems to me that he never really wanted to come back, except in a few cases that involved conflicts with his relatives.

      • Cecilia Saraiva , Direct link to comment

        Interestinly, I fell in love with her immediately in the books, and took a longer time to understand her in the TV show (I think on TV she is treated unfairly). Reading her thoughts, as a POV character, we can see how smart and perceptive she is (she is the only who sees goodness in Sandor Clegane, and the first to describe Littlefinger in a suspectful way… “He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did.” – this one has always impressed me). 🙂 But you are right, and the text… I also believe she deserves to be Queen.

    • Brian , Direct link to comment

      In the words of Petyr Baelish, and the only one who puts any value on her as a person and not just a walking inheritance. She is a girl with no learning and scattered wits. You actually try to describe her as if she actively/decidedly makes decisions leading to her being in the situation she finds herself in. It couldn’t be further from her reality. The only “move” that she took upon herself was to betray her father which lead to his death. As well as igniting the Northern rebellion which led to the death of the rest of her family (as far as she knows). Every decision that she has made on her own has led to death and disaster. Most of what she does is forced or influenced by others. There are only two instances up until ADWD that this is not the case. The first is the aforementioned and the second was when she betrays her sister, which leads to Lady being killed.

      They do give her a “slightly” better image in the show as appose to the books. The scene with Bronze Yohn Royce and the others in the Vale is actually chalked up to her own quick thinking. In the book however, the situation is changed and she was heavily coached by Petyr. As to leave her to her own devices would have surely been disastrous once again. Her betrayal of Ned is also downplayed in the show.

      The only growth that she has shown so far as a character is her being able to use her sex appeal to influence men. This is hinted to at the end of S4 and shown in the new WoW Alayne chapter. This is likely due to the “lessons” given to her by Cersei and Margaery in King’s Landing.

      • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

        So even though Sansa convinces Joffrey not to run down a common woman in the streets and not kill Dontos… Even though she learns 1) not to judge on appearances, 2) Not to trust anyone, 3) That there are not true knights and goes through literal books of character development…. Where she saves lives, comforts women during battle, engages in her own escape, develops sharp observational skills, walks an epileptic boy across a narrow mountain pass above a drop of hundreds of feet, figures out things like Lyn Corbray being Baelish’s man. And the only development you’ve noticed is her “using her sex appeal to influence men”….

        Well, that’s extremely creepy and also indicative of the fact that you are an abysmal reader. Like, horrifically bad.

        Also…. um, they make it very clear that her tactics with Harry were coached by Littlefinger… who is sexually grooming her by the way…

        If you honestly read the books and all you can come away with “the only growth as a character” is her being sexy (13 years old in the books by the way, so kudos to you!) then you really have no business commenting on Sansa AT ALL.


        Luckily, Martin is a better writer than you are a reader, and actually hasn’t devoted 24 chapters to a character without developing her beyond “learns to use sex appeal to influence men”. It’s just a sad commentary on the world that anyone could read the books and get that piss-poor impression.

      • onegirl , Direct link to comment

        I’m FED UP with people not being able to read.

        Sansa Stark NEVER betrayed her father. NEVER.

        What is written in the book is that Sansa wanted to ask leave to stay in King’s Landing. That’s it. She was scared of Robert the Drunkard, so she asked Cersei. “Asking leave to stay in King’s Landing” translates as:
        -Your Grace, may I ask your leave to stay in King’s Landing?
        -Why, little dove, are you going anywhere?
        -Father would have me go back to Winterfell, but I would rather stay and marry Joff… -blah, blah, blah.

        First of all: this doesn NOT compute as betrayal. In order for there to be a betrayal, she should have known what the hell was going on. Which she didn’t. Because she received a terrible education from her parents.

        As for her ability to learn… By the end of Game of Thrones, she almost throws Joff off a battlement, and is only stopped by the hound. At the beginning of A clash of Kings, she saves Ser Dontos’ life at her risk, by being smart enough to get two good lies in enough time. She faces an unknown person with a knife (Dontos), and she makes a better job than Cersei does during the battle of the Blackwater. She also REJECTS everything Cersei ttries to “teach” her (about having a weapon between her legs, or about people hating her).
        In ASOS, she advises Margaery against Joff, despite the fact that if Margy doesn’t marry him, she’s screwed. Again, risking her safety for someone else.
        Given the choice between Tyrion and Lancel Lannsiter, she chose Tyrion.

        After the Red Wedding, she was catatonic. Only after that her real development and mentoring begins. Her development has been misdirected all her life, and after his fatther’s death, her development was put at a stop.

        She’s one great character. And it’s OK if people hate her. What pisses me off is that people consider her “evil”. Martin wrote her as unlikable in the first book, but “evil”? She’s never been that.

  • Amee , Direct link to comment

    I’m really impressed by your style of writing. It was highly entertaining and I absolutely agree with every word. 🙂

  • Lena , Direct link to comment

    You have said all that I could not express so eloquently about why Sansa is a character that I respect. Great article.

  • Claudia , Direct link to comment


    • Brandon , Direct link to comment

      I see no issue w/ disliking a character because she is a weak willed naive fool. She doesn’t get a free pass because she’s playing by society’s expectations, that just make’s her lack strength of character.

      Her character is obviously developing into something more, and maybe then I’ll respect her. But not before.

      • Kat , Direct link to comment

        She starts as 11 years old. That explains the weak will and naivety. She would have been murdered had she not played by society’s expectations.

        Have you read past the first book? She would have no character to speak of if she were dead. The interesting part of her character is the destruction of her childhood naivety and how she picks herself up and survives.

        Her character does not demand respect until she is proven strong after her father’s death. She doesn’t even become an important character until after that. I have a hard time believing you are very far into the series if you do not respect her. I get that in the first book she was an annoying 11 year old with dreams, but the LOSS of those dreams has made her who she is.

        • me , Direct link to comment

          Arya was younger but she wasn’t as naive as her OLDER sister. Besides, past the 1st book, the only good thing about Sansa is that she realized that not all fairy tales have happy endings. Even after his father’s death she still get dreams of being saved, she still couldn’t look straight at the Hound because of his hideous face, (even when the hound was trying to help her) and further on in the story when she gets to the Eyrie, she locks young Robert’s bedroom door coz she’s disgusted with the kid (not saying details). What’s so “brave and gentle and caring” bout that?

          • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

            In some ways, Arya was more naive in GoT than Sansa – she thought she could get by behaving unconventionally as a noble girl of Westeros. If the drastic events that put her in a place where her behavior was helpful hadn’t taken place, she would have had big, big problems. If Ned didn’t go to Cersei and Sansa had married Joffrey as planned, Arya would have been the crown prince’s sister (and eventually the king’s sister, and probably would have been married to someone else high-ranking), and it would have been completely unacceptable for her to keep running around like a child, playing at swords with commoners. Ned sheltered her quite a lot from reality.

            People don’t tend to see this because in fiction girls who want to learn swordplay are always right and more admirable than girls who don’t want to physically fight, but I’m pretty sure GRRM meant to show that both of them were naive and self-centered in different ways.

          • Mirime , Direct link to comment

            she locks young Robert’s bedroom door coz she’s disgusted with the kid (not saying details
            Except those details are pretty important… Her seven/eight year-old cousin wanted to nurse at her breasts. That is an important part of the whole thing. It was already creepy when it was Lysa, but considering Sansa is just thirteen, it is downright squicky. Or maybe you think she should have endured what practically equals to a sexual molestation otherwise she’s not brave and gentle and caring? Seriously, context matters…

          • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

            She can’t look at The Hound because he’s perving on her. She does, however, look straight at him later with no trouble. She’s disgusted by Robert Arryn because he constantly tries to suck on her boobs. Obviously, she is a horrible person. Oh, no, wait, actually, that’s you.

    • João Romano , Direct link to comment

      Chocolatepot, excelent point of view. Liked your post, copied it to my facebook where I started a thread.

  • suze , Direct link to comment

    Sansa Stark has one of the best transformative arcs in the whole series in my opinion. No one should have a problem with her character post GOT. Well said!

  • CC , Direct link to comment

    I found this to be quite enlightening and eye-opening. It is true that Sansa wasn’t ever a favorite character of mine. I read her chapters as more of a ‘ok time to find out what happens on that side of Westeros’. I don’t hate her, but her chapters are considerably more dull compared to say, Dany, Arya, or Tyrion. I’ve felt that way about some of Jon’s chapters too, before he went north beyond the wall, as it was just a lot of errand boy work, then a lot of just walking around and being cold.

  • GR , Direct link to comment

    Yes—and no. She ends up getting her prince with all the chivalry that a person could hold in those days, but she can’t see past his size and reputation to realize no prince could be better to her (though, not necessarily for her). It’s a powerful irony.

    Of course, that just makes her less than perfect, not a weak women. I’m interested to see where GRRM takes her for the rest of the series.

    • Diana , Direct link to comment

      I would actually argue that Sansa’s disdain for Tyrion comes from the fact that he’s a Lannister and not because he’s a dwarf. Sure he’s nice and kind to her, but so was Cersei and look where that got Sansa. And ‘chivalry’ is not a term that I would apply to Tyrion, either.

    • April , Direct link to comment

      Except for how Tyrion isn’t chivalrous and is actually quietly misogynistic. This is the man who considers raping Sansa, plans to rape Cersei and has no problems with selling Myrcella to the Martells.

    • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

      Does “all the chivalry a person could ask for” include having your twelve year old child bride strip, refusing to let her cover up, then groping her? AKA molesting her. ARE YOU NUTS??????? Tyrion MOLESTED Sansa, and you think that her lack of desire to fuck him is her rejecting the best person she could have? Why, because at the last minute, he decided not to rape her? I suppose you think all twelve year old girls should want to jump into bed with the men they were forced to marry if they only touch them without sticking their dick in them.

      • Dess , Direct link to comment

        You have to consider that in Westeros it is quite common for twelve year olds to be married to much older guys, have to have sex with them and bear their children. Sansa grew up knowing that this was going to happen to her, too (even though she always dreamed that she’d marry a “knight in shining armor”). And Tyrion just did (or was about to do) what was expected of him (aka carrying out his duty as a husband).

        Can someone please remind me at which point Tyrion planned to rape Cersei?

        And there was nothing wrong with trying/ “selling” Myrcella out to the Martells. That’s how alliances work. You help me with some things and in return I make sure to return the favor. (Not to mention that the whole “selling Myrcella out” thing was set up to figure out who was Cersei’s spy.)

        • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

          No. No it is not normal. Not even in Westeros, is it considered normal. The average marriage age for a girl in Westeros is 16-19. Betrothals yes. Marriages, Hell no. And even when marriages do happen, it is usually expected for them to wait to consummate until 16. That is completely inaccurate. Even Tyrion knows it’s squicky. EVERYONE does.

          Tyrion says he wants to rape Cersei in Book 5, when he speaks of serving Dany and says something along the lines of “As long as she lets me take Casterly Rock and rape my sister.”

          Everything you say is completely wrong.

        • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment


          1)Sansa was not “expecting” to sleep with Tyrion. She was told of the wedding the morning of the wedding and threatened that she’d be dragged kicking and screaming at swordpoint to the Sept.

          2) She was horribly terrified the entire time, shaking and crying. When she tried to cover herself, Tyrion ordered her not to. THAT is never a part of a husband’s duty.

          3) Your implication that Sansa’s lack of desire for Tyrion seems to be based on the idea that you think it was entirely based on his looks and not the fact that, you know, he’s related to and actively pursues the interests of the people trying to murder her family (something she reflects on repeatedly)

          4) She actually wasn’t expecting a golden knight at all. She WAS expecting to get out of King’s Landing and instead marry the disabled brother of Margaery Tyrell, Willas (literally she’s thinking of making Willas love her the morning of her wedding to Tyrion. In the Sansa chapter before, she thinks on him and decides she wont’ care if he’s fat or ugly, she just wants a nice person who isn’t in the Lannister gene pool and will take her away from her hellhole. And yes, she knows he’s crippled

          5) Even if your statements about Westeros were correct (which they aren’t. At all), that doesn’t make pedophilia at all okay. If your child bride is crying and shaking and obviously terrified, you don’t have her strip and molest her. And if she wants to cover her boobs, you don’t tell her no. Sansa was forced into that marriage completely unaware until the morning when she was being threatened with blades. SHE IS TWELVE YEARS OLD. EVEN TYRION NOTES THAT THIS IS NOT OKAY. HE MOLESTS HER ANYWAYS.

          6) You are trying to justify an act of child molestation. That is literally what you are doing. And you are doing it based on non-facts.

          7) FURTHERMORE, you apparently don’t know what chivalry means. Tyrion is not chivalrous. He stops Joffrey beating her once, but not any of the other times it happens (even though he would know about them since everyone in the city knew). He only does it when it’s so public it’s a political danger. Also, he’s an alcoholic, he doesn’t even bother trying to WARN Sansa of the wedding until the damn day of it, being involved in the coercion and harm of a twelve year old girl

          8) A patriarchal society that involves glorified child sex trafficking does not make child molestation okay, FYI.

          9) Sansa has no reason to love Tyrion whatsoever. She doesn’t owe him jack shit and her lack of wanting to fuck him is not a mark against her, a flaw, or a mistake on her part. The fact that you characterize a twelve year old girl’s distaste for the idea of having sex with a noseless alcoholic dwarf who is pushing thirty as her “not realizing that she has a chivalric prince” is so unbelievably awful. I can’t fathom how anyone would think this way, let alone admit to it on a public forum. You do realize that is what you’re saying and trying to justify, right?

          10) I don’t care what Sansa’s been taught about duty. it is still molestation, and any sexual between her and Tyrion would still be rape. She was not willing, she was forced. She didn’t even get the courtesy of being warned ahead of time

          11) You clearly have no knowledge of what you are talking about and are just relying on the white-washing of Tyrion on the show. Guess what? In the books he a) doesn’t warn her about the marriage even knows long ahead of time, b) allows her to be threatened, c) sees her as a political tool, d) does things like have a man’s fingers broken for making fun of him, e) doesn’t even allow her the slight comfort of covering her own damn breasts when she’s naked and shaking and on the verge of tears in front of him f) he straight up rapes and beats a slave girl in Pentos in Book 5, g) is revealed as an utter hypocrite in the Winds of Winter chapters posted because when a kind dwarf girl dares to kiss him? Guess what? He fucking hits her. So anything you want to fault Sansa for? Tyrion is a million times worse, h) In a Storm of Swords, he thinks about how if he ordered Sansa to let him fuck her (which would be rape, since he could enforce that order easily if she said no), she’d “not cry more than she had to”. Why am I telling you all of this? Because once upon a time, Tyrion was my favorite character. But I still wasn’t a rape/child molestation apologist about it (this was before ADWD or the WoW chapters were posted). But you are. That is what you are being. You are trying to justify child molestation and are using this instance to characterize the victim of said molestation as her not appreciating her molester while implying it’s on purely a superficial basis. That is literally what you are doing here.

          Not raping or beating the shit out of a person does not make one any sort of standard of chivalry.

          Tyrion is a victim of mental, emotional, physical and sexual abuse. But that fact, nor the social order there, justify him molesting an innocent girl.

          I hope you are not allowed around women or children.

        • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

          OH AND:

          12) Sansa knew she’d MARRY but not to an alcoholic dwarf over twice her age. She grew up believing her father would promise her to a man/boy slightly older, arranged by her father, who loves her. And yes, she did dream of knight in shining armor because everyone does (even fucking Jon dreams of the Night’s Watch more of less being a group of this). However, she ALSO always grew up with the knowledge/expectation that the match would be determined by her Father/Mother/brothers, people who loved her, not the people who actively try to murder her relatives and like to beat the shit out of her for kicks. She also believed her wedding night would involve her being surrounded by people who loved her and/or were at least looking out for her interests somewhat. A great deal of her terror during the wedding/wedding night and from her marriage is mostly about how they’ve “made her a Lannister”, how she won’t be able to escape this awful family that is killing her relatives, the Lannisters trying to take her claim to Winterfell, being stuck in Joffrey’s path for the rest of her life and being raped by him, and her being creeped out by the weird looks Tyrion gives her.
          13) NONE OF THE DUTY SHIT CHANGES THE FACT THAT SHE WAS MOLESTED AND IT WAS NOT OKAY. Sansa Stark has been sexually groomed from her birth, and guess what? That is sex abuse as well. She is still being abused. Leaving aside the fact that statutory rape laws exist for a reason and that even in Westeros, this would be considered super creepy, there is the fact that before and during her molestation her thoughts follow a pattern of “Oh god. This wouldn’t be so bad if I were surrounded by people who loved me. But I’m not. They’re going to keep me here. I have no choice”, “One eye looks angry, the other lustful. I’m not sure which scares me more”, “Try to find the beauty in him” and “OH gods, what sin have I committed to deserve this?” She’s recoiling and crying and trying to cover herself up and terrified. Tyrion Lannister tells her not to cover herself even though she’s shivering and clearly trying not to cry and twelve and absolutely terrified. Then he gets her on her bed, gets naked, and starts groping her. She’s shutting her eyes, completely horrified because she’s a twelve year old who is being molested. It is only after tears are leaking out of her eyes that Tyrion is like, “Okay, I won’t actually stick my dick in you”. Then proceeds to pass out drunk and naked next to her. He resents her for it from that point on and at Joffrey’s wedding thinks, “She’s dutiful, this wife of mine. If I ordered her to give me her maidenhead tonight, she probably wouldn’t cry too much.”

          But yeah, Sansa’s totally not appreciating what a chivalrous prince he is.

          Seriously, do you know how horrifying EVERYTHING THAT COMMENT SAYS is? Next time you want to defend allegations of child molestation 1) don’t unless you’re a god damn defense attorney 2) Actually maybe look some shit up before you start quoting “facts” and 3) If you are discussing known sexual touching between an adult male and an unwilling twelve year old, don’t ever try to use the excuse that “It’s okay because in this society twelve year old girls expect to have sex with older men whether they want to or not.”

          • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

            Okay, I agree that Dess’s premise that 12yo girls were expected to marry adult men is flawed (it’s a common misperception even regarding European history; there as in Westeros, it was understandable as a necessity in times of unrest and shifting alliances, but not common or expected at all) and that the more awesome Tyrion of the show has bled into a lot of people’s image of book!Tyrion. But it seems kind of unnecessary to repeatedly accuse Dess of being a pedophile/rapist/rape apologist, say they shouldn’t be allowed to be around women and children, and command them to never talk about child molestation in fiction unless they become a lawyer based on a mild couple of sentences that, again, go along with a very common opinion of historical medieval practices.

            Really, while the idea that Tyrion was the prince Sansa hoped for in a body she couldn’t get past is silly and annoyingly widespread, I think GRRM’s motivations in presenting the situation you described so vehemently are worth the anger and criticism more than any fans involved in this thread. They got where they got because they bought fully into GRRM’s presentation of Tyrion’s perspective, as many people do when reading books with semi-unreliable narrators. Martin chose to have Tyrion not fight very hard against marrying Sansa, to get drunk at their wedding, to briefly try actually consummating it to make it fully legal, to think bleakly about how biddable Sansa would probably obey his order to have sex with him. Heck, he chose not to go with the time skip that would have made the whole wedding concept less creepy. (There’s enough unrealistic in the books without even getting to the fantasy aspects that “the political situation stayed basically stable for five years” wouldn’t have drawn comment, imo.)

          • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

            I didn’t say Dess was a rapist or a pedophile. I said I hoped he wasn’t allowed around women and children because the views he expressed are profoundly messed up and indicate seriously skewed idea of both consent and age-appropriate behavior. I will continue to say he is a rape apologist for his choice to try and justify the molestation of a child as “he was doing his duty” while also implying that Sansa’s reluctance to sleep with the adult man she was forced into marrying indicates that she was chasing a knight in shining armor thing and faulting a child for not seeing what a chivalrous prince her own molester was. Acting like in this case touching a child inappropriately is “okay” and calling the molester “chivalrous” because “twelve year old girls married old dudes all the time!” not only is based on a falsity, but even if child brides were a common thing like he implies, it STILL is molestation and is STILL not okay. Societal standards do not give someone a pass for molesting twelve year old, ESPECIALLY when the molester himself acknowledges how screwed up the situation s and does it anyways. Sorry, but trying to make excuses and saying the child bride was “prepared for” and should “expect” to be raped and so it’s like, totally unfair to call it molestation or say it was wrong IS being a rape apologist.

            I don’t know if Dess is a rapist or a pedophile. I didn’t say he was that. However, I was trying to make a point that his comments do come off as seriously creepy regarding consent/age limits with his line of thinking and if that’s how this person approaches matters of child molestation (even if they are not a child molester themselves), they are not the type of person who should be around a child.

            And I didn’t say he should never talk about it. I said he should never try to DEFEND an act of child molestation/molester’s actions unless he has the training to do so. Even applying those ideas to fictional scenarios implies a lot about a person’s personal beliefs while also sending messages to people that are seriously messed up. How we speak of media reflects on and influences our culture greatly.

            I mean seriously, you don’t find the fact that this person is trying to defend the idea that a young sexual abuse victim was just a superficial brat who didn’t recognize what a “chivalrous prince” her molester was with, “Well, it’s okay because they were married and she totally expected to someday have sex whether she wanted to or not so yeah her molester was just “doing his duty”” INCREDIBLY DISTURBING? A person who thinks that way about ANY scenario, fictional or no, has seriously messed up views on sex, children, history, consent, and abuse. That line of thinking, even ignoring the misconception he espouses there about medieval/Westeros marriages, indicates a truly messed up mentality. ESPECIALLY when it’s been made clear repeatedly that even TYRION knew a) Sansa didn’t want it and b) touching her would be disgusting. Even by Tyrion’s standards, he molested a girl (though he doesn’t want to acknowledge it). Those sentences were not mild. They may have been just “a couple” but they were not mild. They contained a shit ton of ignorance and BS for two sentences, even discounting the historical misconception. Even taking the history mistake out of the equation, his justification for what took place is PROFOUNDLY fucked up just on a logical/moral level.

            But I didn’t say he couldn’t talk about it. I’m the one who brought the incident up. I described it in detail. I even mentioned that Tyrion himself is a victim of sexual abuse. I don’t have a problem with discussing molestation. I have a problem with trying to justify it.

            As to GRRM: He writes in POV and in character. The actual molestation is shown from Sansa’s POV. We get Sansa’s POV almost as much as we get Tyrion’s, and GRRM made it VERY CLEAR what took place that day. I judge it as a fault in the reader that despite the graphically described forced marriage/molestation from the point of view of the terrified victim, there are people who buy into Tyrion’s BS and are actually faulting the victim. There is no ambiguity in Sansa’s texts. We have many side-by-side POVs in ASOS between Sansa and Tyrion where it’s made very clear how each view things and Tyrion’s perspective is full of shit. Martin has him clearly think crazy, obviously wrong and misguided shit like, “Does Sansa wish she were marrying Joffrey?” during the royal wedding to indicate this. And we have Sansa describing her discomfort, as well as thinking rather kind thoughts towards him, especially in context of what happened. But the text does describe a molestation of a twelve year old girl by a character who has expressed reservations about her age and knows she doesn’t want him. There are clear depictions of just how terrified this girl was and how she was forced into this. We see her thoughts and her situation is laid out in the book, and so many of Tyrion’s thoughts towards her make it very clear how wrong he is, not just morally, but about the girl he is married to (I mean, normally brilliant Tyrion, who almost never fails to catch subterfuge before it’s too late, doesn’t at all pick up on the fact that there are more to his wife’s nightly devotions than just piety. He doesn’t even find it suspicious when she nervously is all like, “um, no, you can’t come with me—- you’ll… um… FIND IT BORING! THAT’S IT!”) It’s made clear that Tyrion is an unreliable narrator on purpose, it’s made clear that what took place has been viewed by both parties as wrong, and we have the horrified reality and point of view of the victim made clear, with her thoughts, opinions on the match, her husband, and appearance laid out for us even before the match takes place. She blatantly fantasizes about being married to a cripple (a majorly negative point for people in Westeros), explicitly thinking that she won’t care if he’s fat or gross, and not caring that he’s not a knight, but still whispering this dude’s name into a pillow and pining to meet him, look pretty for him so he might love her, and seeing him as a savior despite issues with appearance/disability. We have her horrified and in tears over being groped, trying to cover herself. Her being threatened with rape and death if she doesn’t go through with it. We have a graphic description of a scared little girl being raped. We have her POVs after (a number of them side by side with Tyrion’s). We have the facts of what took place. And yet, people are still arguing the point that Sansa’s a superficial bitch who only cares about appearance for not loving Tyrion, while insisting on a thousand other pieces of misogynistic crap to lay at her feet. The reason they don’t realize what happened can be partially due to the show, yes, but also because they are purposely ignoring what was written in the actual text. They are purposely ignoring the inappropriate touching, the girl that is twelve and being threatened and crying as she’s stripping before the man she was forced to marry and wondering what she could have done to deserve her molestation, we have her molester decrying the idea before the fact, doing it anyways and then contemplating raping her later while demonstrating severe ignorance we KNOW to be ignorance about his wife after. We have the terrified twelve/thirteen year old just trying to GO HOME and not get raped. We have numerous instances of Tyrion displaying his own ignorance. It is made clear that there are unreliable narrators, luckily, there are multiple narrators who make the situation clear. If we ONLY got Tyrion’s POV, I might agree with you. But we have Sansa Stark right there, twelve years old, trying to cover her breasts, having endured threats of rape and death all day, wishing that she could at least have someone who loved her with her.

            The reason people don’t see what happened is because they are purposely ignoring it or are just awful, awful readers. That is not GRRM’s fault. The Tyrion/Sansa wedding night was explicit and portrayed from the POV of the crying, twelve year old victim. Despite this, there are people who still believe Sansa is ungrateful for not loving him enough. That is indicative of a truly screwed up sense of values. One which Martin PORTRAYS through some of Tyrion’s thoughts, but also CONDEMNS with the POV of the victim, all the facts of the story, and what actually took place. He makes it pretty clear that Tyrion has seriously messed up and inaccurate views about women and his wife. He takes every opportunity to remind people of that. They are ignoring it in favor of calling a child sexual abuse victim superficial and the molester a “chivalrous prince” who isn’t being “appreciated”. Sort of like Tyrion’s thoughts… AND he eventually straight up rapes a girl. Anyone who has actually read the books should be completely aware that Tyrion’s thoughts about women are completely insane. Only someone who is absolutely determined to hate on Sansa/or is a fan of the rape-culture mentality far too common in our society would look at what was written and decide to cast her as the bad guy who didn’t appreciate Tyrion as the “chivalrous prince.” That is straight up grotesque. It is. There are no excuses for it.

            As for the show, the molestation doesn’t happen in the show and both characters are white-washed a bit. But when someone straight up refers to molestation and mentions the book, it is up to a person responding to have so god damn common sense about two very different situations. Show!Tyrion has not molested any kids. Book!Tyrion has, and it is not okay and anyone suggesting that it is and that his victim doesn’t see him for the prince he is has a seriously messed up world view. I will not apologize for calling someone out on that. I DO know that GRRM has been increasingly unsatisfied with the show, and that apparently he’s had less and less to do with the creative direction/writing since season one. He doesn’t have complete control of the show (and has openly voiced problems with several changes). THe creators, other producers, other writers, directors, and even actors can totally get away with going over his head in regards to show content.

          • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

            All Dess said was the misperception about 12yo/older men being a Thing and that consummation of the marriage was seen as what Tyrion was expected to do, which … well, it was. That’s not defending him on an objective moral level, but putting his thoughts and actions into context. It’s not true that marriages in Westeros usually had such great age disparities, but it is true that it was accepted as a practice, which does give it a legitimacy to the characters that should be taken into account. And whether or not Westerosi society as a whole would expect Tyrion and Sansa to consummate the marriage at that time, Tywin explicitly did, which is enough for me to take it out of the realm of Tyrion just doing the so-basically-decent-that-it-shouldn’t-even-be-acknowledged thing. And because this whole situation is so far removed from Western life today, I’m uncomfortable with drawing a direct line between a) what someone sees as understandable by characters in that world and b) what someone would do or justify in real life, especially based on such a very short comment. (Seriously, this person is trying to defend the idea that a young sexual abuse victim was just a superficial brat who didn’t recognize what a “chivalrous prince” her molester was? Please reread the comment. They didn’t call her a superficial brat or say she should have recognized what a prince Tyrion was.)

            But I think the issue does come down to GRRM.

            We have many side-by-side POVs in ASOS between Sansa and Tyrion where it’s made very clear how each view things and Tyrion’s perspective is full of shit.

            But Tyrion’s perspective isn’t full of shit in the objectively negative way you’re putting it here. Their perspectives are paired so that we can see the discrepancies – Sansa’s fear vs. Tyrion’s self-loathing, and what they each imagine the other thinks. I don’t think there’s much of a case to be made that GRRM was saying that literally all of Tyrion’s reliability as a narrator is shot, just that it is when it comes to his self-perception. (I never saw it as Tyrion blaming the victim, either – can you quote what you’re referring to? His comment about ordering her struck me as bitter rather than something like “if I ordered her, she wouldn’t cry much … like she shouldn’t have cried much the other night.” It’s just his usual “woe is me” stuff.)

            What this comes down to to me, and why I blame the author, is that GRRM deliberately wrote a very grimdark crapsack world where rape is so ridiculously prevalent that even just stopping before actual penetration, or saying you should/could rape someone but not doing it (Sandor), is the mark of a Decent Person. It shouldn’t be like that! It doesn’t have to be! People often justify how OTT grimdark Westeros is by saying it’s drawn from our history, but it’s much worse than the middle ages ever were. In any other book “but he feels pressured to rape her and stops short” would be no kind of character defense, but because GRRM decided to make nonconsensual sex a quintessential part of the world of ASoIaF, women’s consent only mattering to a very very few characters, it seems reasonable to me to take it into consideration.

            I just don’t know what you’re doing with the vituperative walls of text. I’ve never defended anyone on this subject before because it’s usually something like GR’s comment at the top of the thread that results in accusations of justifying pedophilia, but this seems needlessly angry and personal.

            • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

              I’m sorry, but the dude specifically responded to me objecting to the assertion that Sansa didn’t appreciate Tyrion as the “chivalrous prince” he was by specifically mentioning that Tyrion molested Sansa. When I said Tyrion molested Sansa (which is true), this person objected to my assertion that child molestation meant someone wasn’t chivalrous. He did, in fact, try to stick up for Tyrion specifically on the basis of him molesting a twelve year old girl. He did it with a) a statement based on nothing true and b) also said Sansa was “prepared” to be raped. He placed it in the context of defending Tyrion. That is trying to justify something. When you are arguing that a specific action isn’t enough to make a person unworthy of a word like “chivalrous”, and challenging that specific charge, you are trying to justify that action. In this case, the action in question was child molestation. Dress was objecting to me saying that Tyrion wasn’t a chivalrous prince who deserved Sansa’s love because he molested Sansa. He wanted me to “consider” the child molestation in question and cited a bunch of bullshit. He was defending Tyrion’s actions towards Sansa, in particular the time he molested her. I’m repeating myself because apparently my explanation as to why that is, by definition, a justification of an act of child abuse, is lost on you. But it is. He was trying to say Tyrion molesting Sansa was not that bad. He tried to use false historical context to do it, plus just a horribly warped idea that because they live in a society where girls are supposed to marry men and have babies, that made Tyrion’s molestation of Sansa not so bad. (Even though, you know, rape is still rape. Forcing girls to have sex in medieval times was still rape even when it was by their husbands). Even though he molested her, he can still be considered a “chivalrous prince”. Sansa’s just too caught up in the “knight in shining armor” mentality to see it.

              The victim blaming refers to him saying that Sansa was prepared for it, that she knew what she was in for, as if that somehow has anything to do with the wrongness of the situation or means she gave consent. He is also speaking of this in context of a thread that started out with the assertion that Sansa didn’t appreciate her awesome molester, and specifically chose to challenge me on the point of Tyrion molesting Sansa meaning that Sansa didn’t owe him any appreciation. That is victim shaming. He is describing her as a prepared and informed partner in what happened to her (being molested and nearly raped, remember) and apparently, for that reason, I should totally not hold that against Tyrion, and GF is still right about Sansa failing to see Tyrion as this awesome guy in SPITE of the fact that he molested her. In context, that was an argument for the idea that Sansa owed Tyrion thanks, and that bringing up what he did that night isn’t fair. Sansa should have been more appreciative of the man who sexually abused her (because in context, apparently, the sexual abuse was justifiable and so Tyrion is still a chivalrous prince and Sansa’s inability to see that is evidence of her need for further character growth).

              Anger over such sentiment, trying to justify an act of child molestation in order to argue that the molester IS a great guy who his victim should see as a “chivalrous prince” is awful. There is no “needless” anger on that score. The sort of attitude that sort of argument represents is something to be furious about. Rape apology should be anger inducing. It is disgusting. And I will call someone out for that.

              As for the POV thing: we have all the evidence in the world that Tyrion is wrong in particular about Sansa. That he is being a shit about her. (OH, and BTW, his thoughts on her go beyond just “woe is me”. While his self pity is a big motivator, that does not make it devoid of malice. He later characterizes her as “false” because….? And has numerous resentful and horribly unsympathetic thoughts about her). Just because it’s a crapsack world does not mean morals and logic go out the window. He’s seen firsthand the awful abuse Sansa has suffered at Joffrey’s hands and is well aware of how terrified she is of him. Yet he thinks, “Does she wish it were her?” If that’s not the biggest indicator of how warped his feelings are about her, then I don’t know what is. If the wedding night scene were told from Tyrion’s POV, or if Sansa wasn’t mentioned as “trembling” three different times, two scared to speak, and all her thoughts of terror weren’t present, I might agree with you. People who argue in favor of Tyrion’s BS about Sansa not appreciating him are willfully ignoring how terrified she was, every single thing about every one of her chapters, and the blatant depictions of Tyrion not really being an authority on women or his wife.

              I totally understand your feelings if you think GRRM didn’t make things clear enough even if I disagree with that. But please stop trying to stick up for someone who has cited “Sansa was prepared for it” on the topic of Tyrion molesting her on a thread about Sansa needing character growth to understand what a chivalrous prince Tyrion is.

              And for the record, my opinions on that go for anyone who wants to challenge me on that wedding night being a reason that Sansa doesn’t owe Tyrion any appreciation. Not just Dess. Maybe that was a total brain fart on his part. But anyone who wants to justify Tyrion touching that terrified twelve year old who was forced to marry him and defending the idea that he’s “chivalrous” against the fact that he molested her needs to have the hideous implications of such a point laid bare. And such a heinous point does deserve anger and scorn.

              Oh, and I cannot stress this enough: Even Tyrion acknowledged how wrong it was before it happened. He only tried disassociating himself from how wrong it was after he did it. He decided to go through with wedding and bedding her anyways when Tywin pointed out the opportunity for Winterfell. As soon as his personal interests came into play, his moral objections lessened considerably.

          • Dess , Direct link to comment

            Alright, I understand that my statement about the early marriages of young girls was wrong. I did some research and yes, seems that both of you were right about this and I am sorry that I wrote my comment before doing research.
            But please don’t take my comment out of context or accuse me of things I haven’t said.

            1. I never said she was expecting to sleep with Tyrion. All I said was that she knew that she would marry one day and get children (at a young age BUT it seems that I was wrong about this detail).
            2. Tyrion was expected to sleep with her, to confirm that he was her husband and thus to be able to claim Winterfell. That was what I meant when I wrote about “husband’s duty“, no more, no less. Of course it was to be expected that Sansa would be terrified – after all, she was just a twelve year old girl.
            3. I never said or implied that her repulsion towards him was solely based on his looks. I read the books, I read all the passages about how Sansa didn’t trust Tyrion even as he was nice to her, because he was a Lannister. So please don’t put words in my mouth that I never said.
            4. The “knight in shining armor“ passage was referring to her life in general. And to her Willas may have seemed as a knight because she knew that if she married him, she’d be able to escape King’s Landing and the Lannisters.
            5. (To be exact, this wouldn’t have counted as pedophilia, because as far as I know, having sex with a minor is only pedophilia if the minor is prepubescent. Sansa did menstruate before which means, she was pubescent.) However, by moral standards what Tyrion did is not excusable and I never said it was. The only thing I did was pointing out that he was expected to sleep with her (sorry if I repeat myself, but then again, so do you).
            6. By Westeros standards (if I remember right) she was considered to be a woman due to her menstruation. Of course, considering our age standards, she’d be considered a child. Guess, that depends on which society we’re taking into account. (And again, I never planned on justifying the act of molestation itself.)
            7. Please remind me, when did I ever say that Tyrion was chivalrous? I literally never even mentionened this word (even if it was mentioned in the comments above), all I did was trying to soften up your argumentation against Tyrion.
            8. It does not make child molestation okay, just like it does not make taking people as slaves and war trophies but it does give some context to why people would actually do such a thing. And that was I was trying to do – to relate to the context.
            9. I also know that Sansa does not have any reason to love Tyrion or to owe him some. When did I ever mention it? I’m sorry, I’m just kind of confused. Why are you constantly trying to relate to things I never even implied?
            10. Yes, it would have been rape. But it also would not have been a unusual thing in Westeros’ marriages (as far as I understood it – take for example Dany’s marriage with Drogo (at first) or Lysa’s marriage with Jon Arryn (I hightly doubt that she was enjoying sleeping with him)). That does not make it any better, it just shows that it was not only Sansa who had to go through such a thing.
            11. I don’t know about you but I never even watched the show, so I guess I cannot rely on TV Tyrion that much.
            And I never faulted Sansa for anything regarding Tyrion and the marriage. I don’t even know how you got the idea. Really, I am rereading my comment for about the fifth time and I seriously am amazed how much additional content (that wasn’t even there in the first place) you were able to read out. Where exactly did I say that Sansa was ungrateful and that Tyrion was a “chivalrous prince“?
            I kind of have the feeling that I have to state it again, just to prevent further misunderstandings: This kind of society had marriages between young girls and older men. And it did happen that younger girls had to have sex with older men. However, this does not make it okay, just because it happened in this kind of society. Such a thing is not okay, even if the other society standards implied that there were a lot of people who got away with such and similar things. It was expected that both parties knew that. And I never said or implied it or at least never meant to imply such a thing (because I really don’t know how you came to misunderstand it (accidently or not) to this extent).

            And well…regarding this “I hope you are not allowed around women or children“ – guess I’ll have to stay away from myself.

            • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

              Oh… I don’t know… maybe because you were purposely responding to people objecting to exactly that title for him? Collectively?

              And since you were defending Tyrion on those grounds, yes, you were trying to justify it. You also said “Sansa knew this was going to happen to her”. So, you know… You said that. You completely did. And that’s why you should probably consider your arguments a little better. Because they’re horrible.

              Do yourself a favor? You don’t want people to read shit into your inaccurate arguments? Try to avoid the discussion of an instance of child molestation, since you seem to have an urge to defend an instance of it. Just don’t. You’re really, really, really bad at exploring the issue. Horrible, in fact. You are bad at judging the context of your arguments. All one would have to do is read the damn thread, and the content of the original comment the people you were were responding to were arguing with (the “Sansa couldn’t see past Tyrions size to see what a chivalrous prince he was” assertion) to connect you with that statement. You were arguing with the people that were arguing with that statement, thus placing yourself in defense of that disgusting assertion, and also, you know, objecting to the mention of the completely valid point about the child molestation. Where a child molestation happened. That is still a child molestation regardless of what BS context you want to put it in. Especially one acknowledge by the molester as being incredibly inappropriate.

              Next time you want to talk child molestation and consent, do your damn research. Otherwise, you spew ignorance. Dangerous damn ignorance.

        • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

          And well…regarding this “I hope you are not allowed around women or children“ – guess I’ll have to stay away from myself.

          You know, my first assumption was that you were a guy, but I ended up deliberately using singular they because it really is ridiculous to assume that someone is male just because they’re defending Tyrion to some extent. The imagined dichotomy of “female fans who criticize misogyny in the books” vs. “male fans who think everything is great all the time” that pushes anyone making a defense (or in this case a “relative, questioning justification”, I’d say) into the category of “unthinking misogynist dudebro” is quite problematic and really obviously informing this altercation.

          It’s pretty clear to me that you were saying that marital rape was common and not okay. And, I mean, in Westeros it is. Men might be vaguely sympathetic to it but it’s not considered rape in that world, and women there know that they may have to suffer it. To be honest, that’s another thing that I don’t think GRRM handled well – several female characters of varying importance to the plot deal with it, and the only one who’s really valorized is the one that takes control of the sex and makes it consensual, which IMO gives the impression that letting yourself feel violated messes you up mentally, while committing yourself to more sex with your rapist (who, in this case, also falls under the modern definition of “child molester”) is empowering. I don’t think Dany’s story with Drogo is a totally bad thing – in some ways, this narrative is a good subversion – but the fact that it kind of stands alone is an issue.

          (The interesting thing about the marriage misconception that young girls used to be frequently married to middle-aged men is that it’s mostly based on the desire to believe that we’ve come such a long way because the past was so terrible. The actual historical examples tend to be “an alliance needs to be made right now between two families/countries, let’s pair up two of our children, oops I don’t have any sons/my sons are already married/I have a political issue with my sons”. And they did tend to wait for consummation because young teenagers don’t have easy pregnancies/labors – it’s thought that Margaret Beaufort didn’t have any children after Henry VII because she was 13 at the time and might have been permanently damaged by the bad childbirth. So anyway I don’t blame you at all for not knowing, it’s so commonly repeated.)

    • onegirl , Direct link to comment

      “She ends up getting her prince with all the chivalry that a person could hold in those days, but she can’t see past his size and reputation ”
      She CAN see past his size and reputation. She is offered the choice of prettier Lancel Lannister, and she ACTIVELY chooses Tyrion.
      That said, what she cannot do at age TWELVE, is force herself to be attracted to Tyrion. She tries. She forces herself to remember her septa’s teachings about all men having some beauty. Unluckily, the Septa’s teachings were wrong. Tyrion is described as hideous. Sansa would hardly want to have sex at that moment, she tried to force it and didn’t work.

      That was before the Red Wedding. After it, Sansa was described as catatonic. She was basically in another world and just going through the moves.

  • aiyanajane , Direct link to comment

    I’ve never understood the hatred of Sansa, as you said, she’s just a young girl following her dream and the societal expectations. To me she was always a character deserving of empathy, as she was stuck between a rock and a hard place. (..or between the wolf and the lion)
    Despite the differences between her and Arya, she still cares for her family and tries to help them, although unfortunatly due to age and inexperience its not often that she succeeds. She’s always been a character I enjoyed reading, and I always felt for her. Imagine being bethrothed to an asshole like Joffery! She’s a lamb in a lions den and somehow has kept herself alive, which is more than many of my favourite characters can say! Great post!!

    • J , Direct link to comment

      This is why I hate Sansa:

      Ned wants to send her away from King’s Landing for her safety and tells her that they will find a man worthy of her and will treat her with kindness.

      She cries and protests exclaiming that she wants to open her legs for the insufferable douchebag Joffrey even after she’s seen him try to kill her own sister and is indirectly responsible for the death of her dire wolf.

      It’s one thing to be feminine, another to be a silently suffering doormat.

      • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

        I think it’s pretty disgusting to describe a naive 11 year old girl as “wanting to open her legs.” Jesus Christ, she’s a child. A child thrown into a political situation that kills her own father because the players at King’s Landing are so good at what they do. But clearly, she is a doormat and a slut, amirite?

      • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

        Tell me: do you judge all of the other characters for the whole series based on single episodes that happened in the first book? I expect you find Jaime nothing but a cold-hearted and gross villain, and Dany only a passive victim.

        Also, what Rhiannon said about your disgusting remark. It shows your fundamental lack of understanding of her character that you think it’s about sex.

      • Sabrina , Direct link to comment

        “Open her legs”? God, she’s 11! With this age, every girl dream about finding her Prince Charmig and marry him. Sansa thinks her dream is coming true, and her life will be a fairytale. And Joffrey is her first love, she thinks he’s in love with her, and is acting as someone in love (how many adults don’t stay in bad marriages and terrible lifes because of love? And they are much older and experient than this young girl).

        Really, read this kind of comment make me sorry for the human race.

      • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

        An episode in which she a) was drunk during and barely understood (“dizzy from the wine”) and b) has mentally repressed (literally. It’s a hallmark of Sansa that to cope with things, such as the idea that she might have promised to an abusive boy, she rewrites events in her own head to try to keep herself from completely losing her shit. Another example includes her run-in with Gregor Clegane where, to try and block out the threat to her life and the near-rape, she rewrites her memory to imagine it as a romantic kiss that never happened. She spends the whole book mentally white-washing Joffrey and swallowing her anxiety about him and romanticizing him because she knows that she’s promised to be married to him. If she were to acknowledge what really happened, she would have to also acknowledge that her father promised her to a vicious boy and was continuing that betrothal even after what happened. And that someday, she’d be legally owned by a vicious boy who tried to kill her sister. Keep in mind she has no real choice in who she has to marry. That is decided by others. She is initially enamored of him, after the Trident, she “hates him” for a while, then basically mentally rewrites the incident in her head so that she can go on believing that her future husband likes killing “but only animals” so that she doesn’t have to confront the fact that maybe her own father promised her to the legal ownership of a potential serial killer. So yes, she tells herself that Joffrey really IS as lovely and good as he appeared initially. She has a literal psychological wall that completely blocks out the truth of what happened until after Ned is killed. She’s not doing it on purpose, either. Her delusions are just that: delusions of an eleven year old girl who has forced the reality of her super dangerous situation into her subconscious. On top of that, she was being charmed and manipulated by Joffrey and by Cersei, who it turns out has been plying her with motherly attention and gifts the entire time. Meanwhile, her own father had her go to the tourney of the Hand with no one but a little girl and an old nun, placing her in the middle of the city, without providing her with a single guard. Guess who DOES provide her with someone to protect her as she makes her way back to the Red Keep through the murderer and rapist laden city? Joffrey does. He has the Hound escort her back. His own personal guard [I’m not saying he did this out of any decency, btw. I’m portraying it as it appeared to Sansa. Her betrothed providing his own guard for her safety] Meanwhile, Eddard Stark had her in the middle of King’s Landing surrounded by people he thinks are murderers/traitors with no one but her Septa and a ten year old girl with her. So literally, in that situation, Joffrey actually showed more concern for Sansa’s personal safety than her own father. Way to go, Ned. Great parenting. And when he tells her he’s sending her away, this is MONTHS after she’s mentally committed herself to the future he signed her up for, and up until that moment, he’s given her no warning about the situation they’re in. So yeah.). Oh, and BTW, Ned gave her Here’s an idea: What about her father, who knew the truth of what happened, and still had her betrothed to Joffrey for months on end? Do you hate Ned for that? Sansa’s an eleven year old child. Ned is an adult.

        And way to characterize an entire character based on one thing in the first book and ignore literally novels worth of character development.

  • Kastas , Direct link to comment

    I agree with your critiques here but, for myself, anyway, I find that Sansa is a…less than favorite character of mine not because of what she does or does not do, but because she shows us the helplessness of our own situation. She makes me angry because the only smart thing for her to do is to fit the mold that is given to her, which I find depressing. It is…unfortunate, I think that being proud or fighting back is seen as something masculine and, therefore, an option that “feminine” characters like Sansa don’t have. An excellent critique, and an enjoyable read!

    • Matt , Direct link to comment

      ‘being proud or fighting back is seen as something’ logical, forget innies versus outties. instead of examining a situation and challenging it or adapting herself, Sansa wallows in non-committal. It’s difficult to respect someone who agrees with whatever idea is fashionable at that moment.

      • Chai Latte , Direct link to comment

        Except Sansa doesn’t do that.

        She tells her captors what they want to hear so they’ll leave her the fuck alone.

      • AG , Direct link to comment

        What Chai Latte said.

        Also, she’s a PRETEEN GIRL who’s lived a very sheltered life until this point. I don’t know what you expect of her. Sheesh.

    • Bella , Direct link to comment

      You’re saying that you dislike Sansa because her characters situation is depressing? My God how shallow are you? Are you saying that we should dislike the starving kids all over the world because their lives are depressing?

  • Grace , Direct link to comment

    I really appreciated this post! Especially because I felt so much empathy for Sansa during both seasons. Little girls act frustratingly self-centered and self serving, but that’s just a natural phase and I thought she truly grew out of it and did what she needed to do to survive. She was put in a horrifyingly bad situation.

    I’ve had a certain amount of annoyance for woman who demean the more outwardly feminine woman. I find that some women dislike a girl using what comes naturally to them to succeed or survive in trying situations. I’m a real girly person, a polite person, but that doesn’t say a thing about how strong of a woman I am.

    I loved that we saw such strength from both sisters, and how differently that strength comes across.

  • Avery , Direct link to comment

    I disagree. I think she is hated because she is dishonorable, doesn’t show loyalty to her family, and is incredibly naive. She lies about the incident with Joffery and the wolf, leading to the murder of an innocent child and her own wolf, while getting her sister into trouble. She fails to recognize what is going on around her during the purge of the Starks around her. She doesn’t form any alliances with other characters at the Red Keep. She doesn’t leave with the hound in the finale even though it would greatly help her brother. The only thing she does is get abused and avoids saying she hates the king.

    There are other characters who display feminine characteristics, and they aren’t hated for them (Daenerys and Catelyn Stark come to mind).

    She isn’t hated for being a pre-teen girl, she is hated for being one of least effective characters in the story. Give Sansa some intruiges of her own, and have her make some moves for the characters around her. She’ll be well loved.

    • Diana , Direct link to comment

      Oh, but have -you- being a 11 year-old with a rival sibling? This is quite normal not to back them up, and Arya doesn’t help other. Arya is egoistic, spoiled and arrogant, and thinks only about her own pain (although she -is- my favorite, it is also true).

      She didn’t get Arya into trouble, ARYA’s actions got her into trouble when she decided to hit Joffrey – and not listen to the pleas of her sister not to. I can see WHY Arya did it, and he -is- and asshole, but that doesn’t mean she can completely disrespect him physically when he didn’t do -her- any harm. Arya could have -talked- to him, -told- him not to do anything with the boy (I don’t think he would listen much, but still, that was the way to go), for up to when she started beating him, he was -complaining that the boy was hitting her-.

      Arya DESERVED to be punished for she DID break the rules, and if she wasn’t so spoiled and pampered she might have noticed that no one – except, perhaps, his betters – gets leave to hit the heir to the throne. She always gets away with her crap, and that has failed to teach her that even if she’s a lord’s daughters it doesn’t make her untouchable.

      (Now, I’m not saying that I -agree- with the system, but surely there’s no point in evaluating a character from modern perspective in a feudal setting. The boy was his to punish, and he didn’t do him any lasting harm and it doesn’t even compare to the beating Arya gives him. She starts trowing a rock in the back of his head big enough to make it bleed, for fuck sake.)

      And then, after her sister is missing for days and being looked for some really creepy man, and she has to tell the fucking King that his precious boy and her betrothed (the man she will spend the rest of her life with!) is an ass. How could she -not- be terrified? She didn’t say anything against her sister either, she kept her silence and that’s her best armor in that moment. Not taking part in a row between your sister and your (future) husband is a very good idea as far as relationships go, specially considering that you won’t be able to get rid of either for the rest of your lives.

      It’s not the fault of either child when Lady is killed, that was Cersei’s deed alone.

      But, from your comment, I gather that you haven’t read the books, which makes a rather big deal of the reaprochment between Sansa and Joffrey after that day, as well as between Sansa and Cersei. And, as everything else, it does have an important plot point in all her actions, even if they are deemed ineffective; whose ends will be shown in due time. 😉

      • Tony George , Direct link to comment

        go read the book again. sansa was one of the major reasons all this happened in the first place. her father Ned told her to stay in her room till he could send her and arya back to winterfell to safety, but no, sansa just had to go say farewell to her beloved prince joffrey and by doing so letting Cersei know of Ned’s intentions and making all the arrangements to have joffrey ascend the iron throne right away.

        so read the book again, before arguing that arya’s more to blame lol

        • stonebiscuit , Direct link to comment

          I maintain that if Ned had bothered to tell his children “we’re in terrible danger and cannot trust anyone, and we have to flee this place because of it,” things might have gone differently. As it stands, he left them with no information other than “we’re leaving because I said so.”

          • Nicholas Walls , Direct link to comment

            He is their father and the head of a major household. Why on earth would he have to explain things to them? A Lord or Lady is rarely in the habit of explaining themselves.

            • stonebiscuit , Direct link to comment

              Except when he explained tough things about life to Arya, and Bran, and presumably his older boys. Because Ned and Cat were trying to be good parents. Regardless of whether or not it was something that Lords and Ladies “do,” he should have done it, especially when he saw that Sansa was so upset.

        • Mirime , Direct link to comment

          How about Littlefinger’s betrayal of Ned? Even if Cersei had been informed only by Sansa (which is very unlikely), with the Gold Cloaks Ned would have an advantage. Ned was actually prepared for Cersei’s actions, too bad he trusted Baelish to back him up.

    • Daniel , Direct link to comment

      thank you. i never heard anyone say they hated sansa this post was new to me, i like her. some. but you just nailed it. She Lied on her own sister. being a girly girl is not disliked. even being naive not disliked. lying on your family. Lying to protect someone in the wrong. thats never respected.

    • Josh A , Direct link to comment

      You are mistaken. Catelyn Stark also gets a lot of flak from fans for similar sexist reasons. She is hated for her treatment of Jon, which is my opinion is perfectly understandable. And her treatment of Jon is much more generous than what most noble ladies in Westeros would do to their husbands’ bastards. Catelyn gets unfairly blamed for starting the war with her arrest of Tyrion, which is once again completely ridiculous. It’s Joffrey who starts the war by beheading Ned. This is something that even Tyrion recognizes. Catelyn is often judged unfairly as a terrible mother because she left Bran and Rickon alone in Winterfell, nevermind the fact that she did so in order to protect them because she wanted to ensure that the people responsible for Bran’s assassination attempt were brought to justice. Catelyn is also heavily criticized for releasing Jaime, which I believe is her worst mistake in the series, but I also understand that she was grief-stricken at the loss of Ned, Bran and Rickon (whom she believes have been killed by Theon). Although I disagree with the action itself, I understand why she would release Jaime in a desperate attempt to save her daughters.

      The sexist double standards go beyond Sansa and encompass many other female characters in the world of Westeros.

    • onegirl , Direct link to comment

      “I disagree. I think she is hated because she is dishonorable,”
      No. If it was so, she would be less hated than Jaime Lannister, Twyin Lannister, Roose Bolton or many other dishonorable bastards.

      “doesn’t show loyalty to her family, and is incredibly naive.”
      She DOES show loyalty to her family. You are judging her by nowadays’ standards. Her mother is not Catelyn Tully. She’s Catelyn STARK. Catelyn hasn’t seen her sister in five years. When a woman is married, she BELONGS to her husband. Sansa’s been betrothed to Joffrey, she cannot simply break that up. Plus, she has been trained to hope for that and no one tells her her worldview is wrong until Petyr Baelish arrives.

      “She lies about the incident with Joffery and the wolf, leading to the murder of an innocent child and her own wolf, while getting her sister into trouble.”
      This is terribly ignorant. In this case, it was Arya who got Sansa into trouble. Sansa is BETROTHED to Joff. Joff is not a weekend boyfriend that Sansa can dump. Sansa is going to swear obedience to Joff, and belong to him, as her mother did. It was Arya who put Sansa in danger, and that is why after the wolf incident, Ned talks to ARya, not to Sansa.
      In her situation, Sansa was doing things properly. If Sansa was a 21st century girl, she would be doing the wrong thing. Being a Westerosi girl, she NEEDS Joff to like her, because she will BELONG to him. Of course she doesn’t say aything against him.
      As for her family: they are the ones who betrothed her to Joff, and never really taught her how the real world worked. She has a completely wrong vision of reality, and at age 11 and sheltered, that can only be blamed on her parents.

      “She fails to recognize what is going on around her during the purge of the Starks around her.”
      Must run in the family, because at 12 she didn’t realize it… and neither did her father at 35.

      “She doesn’t form any alliances with other characters at the Red Keep. She doesn’t leave with the hound in the finale even though it would greatly help her brother. The only thing she does is get abused and avoids saying she hates the king.”
      Except when she saved Ser Dontos Hollard’s life by pure cunning; when she took the Queen’s role during the Battle of the Blackwater; when she warned Margaery despite the risk that it meant to her…

      Sansa had been raised to have a completely wrong view of society, because having her that blind is very comfortable for her parents: that way they don’t have to explain she’s basically going to be sold out. Once that worldview crushes, she has to rebuild her concept of the world from zero, and she still has time for kindness and heroism.

      People dislike her because she doesn’t wield a sword. Period.

  • skylerschrempp , Direct link to comment

    What I love about the Sansa narrative is it shows how a female character has to survive in the court world. While Sansa could never survive in Arya’s world of fighting and vagabonds, Arya would not have made it a day as a prisoner of Cersei’s court. Sansa is incredibly skilled at staying alive and (somewhat) afloat in a very toxic environment. Courtesy is a lady’s armor.

  • Cis Straight Middle Class Heterosexual White Male , Direct link to comment

    There are way too many ‘in defense of X female character’ posts floating around and this is the most pointless one, in my opinion, because I don’t know anyone that still hates Sansa after the first book. She gets all the interesting chapters, hangs around with multiple fan-favorite characters, and we can identify with her more than anything over her hatred of Joffrey. I don’t see how anyone can ‘hate’ her after the first book. Likewise, I think the only ‘in defense of x female character’ that you can really justify is Catelyn.

    • jen , Direct link to comment

      i have multiple male friends who loathe sansa. from men whove only watched the show, to men whove read all the books multiple times.

      • Josh A , Direct link to comment

        You are right. I visit several forums and Sansa gets a lot of hatred, even for her actions in A Feast for Crows, where her character is completely different from the naïve, self centered brat we first meet in A Game of Thrones. And it’s usually the male fans that continue to hate her. I think that says a lot about the pervasive sexism that still prevails in our society.

  • Mark , Direct link to comment

    I agree. A lot of fans of the series hate her for 1 mistake she made, and they claim it got her father killed even though the bigger mistake was made by Ned Stark. Arya, Robb, and Jon all make dumb decisions at one point, but they are forgiven a lot by fans.

    I like Sansa Stark as a character. Of all the characters, she is one that I think deserves a happy ending. I like that she kept her kindness despite her situation. I also think her sympathy is a lot more genuine than Dany.

    I am interested to hear thoughts on Catelyn and Cersei, who were probably raised in a similar manner. I’ve always thought Cersei was not happy with her role. She was bitter that she would not inherit Casterly Rock, and even after becoming Queen, she probably wondered why she couldn’t be King. I think Catelyn is stuck somewhere in the middle. She is smart, but often holds back her advice because she doesnt want to make Robb/Edmure look bad. But she also decides on taking a more active role for Robb/Ned (negotiating with Walder Frey, being an envoy for Robb, leaving Winterfell to investigate the assassination attempt on Bran).

  • Frasse Swahn , Direct link to comment

    Jon’s constant “poor me, I deserve so much more” attitude at the Wall, and Robb’s clumsy attempts at being the Lord of Winterfell.

    Dont you think its because they have VASTLY more responsibility? Not to mention that their own lives and lives they care about is at stake.

    • Room , Direct link to comment

      Jon his whining attitude is before his life is at stake, it’s when he is still at Castle Black and gets annoyed because he thinks he is too good to be steward. So I think the writer was talking about before Ned died and the war started. On top of that, Sansa’s life is just as much in danger. All the Starks have their own strength and flaws.

    • Josh A , Direct link to comment

      Wow!!! Really?? You think that Jon and Robb have VASTLY more responsibility than Sansa??? Why? Because they are male and she is female?? You seem to forget that Sansa was chosen to marry Joffrey. She was meant to be Queen of Westeros. How is that not a vast responsibility and tremendous pressure?? Sansa’s life is just as much at stake as Robb and Jon’s. So, I think you are grossly underestimating Sansa’s role within the political dynamics of the Starks, Baratheons, and Lannisters.

  • Elijah , Direct link to comment

    An interesting article, but Sansa is still the most annoying character in the series.[potential spoilers] As a book reader, you get a better insight into each character than you do in the show, and that just reveals how inferior Sansa is as a character. I will admit, Sansa is placed in some very terrible situations, but how she acts in each situation is the most annoying part. She trusts anyone who simply says they might help her. Anyone. After trusting a very untrustworthy character, she is then surprised when her trust was once again misplaced and she is in yet another bad situation (Ser Dantos and Littlefinger) Also, she expects literally anyone else to save her instead of actually trying to help herself. I personally find her the most annoying character.

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      I am a book reader. 🙂 You’re right that Sansa is still too trusting of the wrong people, but it’s difficult to know who the right people would be, and I do not think she could escape King’s Landing entirely by herself. Keeping her head down, playing the part of a good hostage and subtly trying to find people on her side *is* her way of helping herself. If she did anything more, she’d most likely end up dead.

      However, I do really hope that she continues to grow throughout the series and ends up taking decisive action for herself — turning her from a passive to an active character, once the moment is right. I think she has better chances of that in the Eyrie than she did in King’s Landing.

      • Josh A , Direct link to comment

        Sansa’s character can be easily compared to Theon. Although Theon is treated well by his captors, essentially both Sansa and Theon are political prisoners. They both play the role of a good hostage in order to keep themselves alive. In fact, Theon is much more naïve than Sansa. He develops some sort of Stockholm syndrome and secretly yearns to be a Stark. His resentment for the Starks comes from the fact that he realizes that the Starks will never truly accept him. Sansa has no such delusions. She keeps her head down and behaves like a good hostage to gain time.

        We can argue that falling into the hands of Littlefinger is a bad situation. But Sansa’s circumstances are quite different. She is no longer being mistreated and abused. And her relationship with Littlefinger is much more as equals. Littlefingers trusts Sansa with some pretty damning information. This is information that Sansa can use to her advantage at a later time. Littlefinger also wants to restore Sansa to a position of power. Sansa is no longer in a position of helplessness with Littlefinger as she was in King’s Landing. So, I think this is quite an improvement for her, despite that we know that Littlefinger is a conniving snake.

        • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

          That’s a really interesting perspective! I’ve never heard anyone compare Theon and Sansa before, but I can definitely see the similarities.

    • Bella Rieth , Direct link to comment

      You’re right to say that as a book reader you are given much more insight into the characters. But then you also have to think that Sansa is not a book reader (surprise surprise) and therefore has NO IDEA who is trustworthy and who is not. And she doesn’t just trust ANYONE, she doesn’t trust Tryion, its unfortunate that he is possibly the one character trying to help her. I also don’t think that she doesn’t trust him because he’s a dwarf( because I know that’s another reason a lot of people hate her) but again she can’t read his mind like we can from his chapters, and she doesn’t trust him because he’s a Lannister and trusting them has caused her so much pain in the past that it’s understandable why she wouldn’t want to again. Also it is not her fault that she is in a bad situation, how can you hate someone for that??? That is actually really shallow, that’s like saying I hate starving kids because they’re in a bad situation. You just wouldn’t say that because its sick and messed up and the same goes for Sansa because she is a young girl in a bad situation.

  • Pug , Direct link to comment

    Thoroughly enjoyed the read. However I do have one quibble.
    To me the problem with Sansa after the first book(where she makes most of her mistakes) is exactly what you seem to describe as her greatest trait. She’s a survivor.

    Allow me to be clear, there are plenty of strong female characters in the book and show. Cersei, Daenerys, Margaery, Catelyn, Gilly, Brienne, Arya and later the Sand Snakes among others all stand out as being strong, usually while remaining quite feminine.

    And that leads to the biggest flaw and main reason, I and I imagine many others, dislike Sana. All those women I just listed ACTED. They plotted, they schemed, they went after goals, considered how to achieve them and attempted to achieve them. They are proactive in trying to get what they want, and it works out to different degrees. While it may not always end happily, at least there is movement and plot.

    Sansa however, simply survives. She reacts to whats going on immediately around her and nothing more. She does not plan, she does not act, she makes no effort to better her position or save herself. She is merely carted around by other characters as a token or prize. Sansa is, for the most part, not really a character, merely a narrating set piece.

    Indeed Sansa does survive. But so do cockroaches, and frankly I like them both about the same.

    • Alyssa , Direct link to comment

      Spoilers ahead.

      Not all situations are the same. You can bake a batch of brownies in a bakery, but you probably can’t do it in a post office. The women you listed acted because they had more freedom to act:

      1. Cersei is queen of the realm and mother of the king. She has the support of the Lannisters, the wealthiest family in the realm. She hates everyone around her, but not once is her life threatened because of another’s actions (excepting the attack on King’s Landing where the action she was going to take was killing herself and her youngest son).

      2. Daenerys does not act for the early parts of the first book, when she is still under Viserys’s thumb and slowly gaining Khal Drogo’s affection. After his death, she is admittedly Khal of a depleted khalasar, but she has dragons and is making all decisions for herself and her people. None of her actions (including her taking of the Free Cities) would be possible without the inherent power she holds in these situations.

      3. Margery comes in as a power player. She has multiple support systems already in place (most notably Lady Olenna and Loras). Her family is not at war with the king, and they are necessary as a food source at the time. Her actions are limited, and while she does make them, they will never fall on her head. With the exception of Cersei’s threats on her, and subsequent imprisonment, she is never threatened, and even then her alliances free her.

      4. Catelyn is another character who is always free. Whenever she comes into contact with enemies, she has protection- the majority of the series she has some protector or another with her.

      5. Gilly would not have left without Sam’s presence. That’s not dissing her character because I like Gilly, but she didn’t take action until forced and then she had support she could rely on.

      6. Brienne does face some imprisonment, and is also nearly raped. She doesn’t have the Stark army to avenge her, so she does face a more fatal fate. However, it’s not during this point when she acts. At this point, she realizes there’s very little she can do, and acts accordingly by fighting the bear to the best of her ability before Jaime returns. But otherwise her actions are limited.

      7. Arya also faces some time being imprisoned, but she is able to pretend to be a mere peasant. She has the help of Jhagar and the confidance of Gendry. All of her actions are driven by the powers of others to help her (and man does she waste some opportunities herself!) and taking what opportunities she can to head towards Robb.

      8. When are the Sand Snakes ever around enemies, thus far?

      Randomly searching for allies would not have helped her- no one in that court could have gained from that affiliation. So what actions could a preteen surrounded by her enemies have taken? Appear innocent? Check. Do as little as possible to anger or aggravate her enemies? Check. Use prayer to escape their view for a few minutes? Check. Sansa does take action when it is feasibly provided to her by someone she feels she can trust. Was she manipulated, and can she really trust those people? Unfortunately, she should not have trusted Ser Dontos and she was manipulated, and yet, had she stayed she would have been framed for Joffrey’s murder. Ever since the end of GOT she’s made the best decisions for her survival, and not one of those has hurt the people she cared about. Not one.

      Yes, she made some mistakes in GOT. But what other alternatives could she have taken? Telling the truth about the Arya v. Joffrey showdown would not have resulted in punishment for Joffrey- it would have caused more tension for her. Making up with Arya would have been wise, but Arya wasn’t really pushing for that either. Ned certainly wasn’t taking her into account in his plans, and at best her following his word would have meant their servants lived. She couldn’t do anything for Ned, who brazenly approached Cersei. Her subsequent letter to Robb and Catelyn wasn’t paid any attention, and her pleas to Ned to confess didn’t do any harm to him either, since it was in the end Joffrey who decided to kill him.

      Sansa gets a lot of blame for not being a power player, and yet some pretty great offenses which she could not have affected are laid down at her feet. Her job is to survive, since there’s nothing else she can do in her situation. Obviously, she’s done a good job so far.

    • Bella Rieth , Direct link to comment

      Sansa is not a character? Have you read the books? And I ask you if you were a eleven year old girl who in her eyes- tries to do the right thing for everyone and is then betrayed by the people who she thinks she loves and admires, and is then made to watch her father die a horrible death by the same people, even after they promised to show him mercy, and is then imprisoned by the same people and thinks that she has to marry one of them, the one who physically abuses and humiliates her, on top of that the fact that she probably feels a great deal of guilt as well as feeling abounded by her rest of her family. I ask you, what would you do in her situation and remember you are a eleven year old child who’s entire life has been turned upside down, because I seriously doubt that you would start planning your escape, when you had seen what those people were capable of.

  • Thelikelylads , Direct link to comment

    @ Avery

    ”She doesn’t leave with the hound in the finale even though it would greatly help her brother. ”

    You do realize that scene was way different in the books right? In the books the Hound is way more frightening. He lays on top of her and he demands she sings a song and he’s very drunk and honestly, I thought he was going to rape her at that moment, and Sansa probably thought that too. Why the hell would she leave with a guy like that.

  • Ally , Direct link to comment

    Sansa is not athletic, sassy, or aggressive like her sister. She is petite, ladylike, and self-controlled, and she plays to her strengths. She uses what she knows, and she uses it well.

    Some people have argued that her simple survival is not praisworthy, that Sansa doesn’t actually DO anything, but I think in her situation doing nothing is a real feat. The discipline and inner strength she displays is inspiring, and I doubt that I would be strong enough to get up in the morning to keep saying “yes, m’lady.” Just because her means of survival lack drama doesn’t make them any less valuable.

  • Mark , Direct link to comment

    Sansa could not survive on the road like Arya. She knows that, and that is part of the reason she doesnt go with the Hound (another being that it looked like he was going to rape her). Minor spoilers, but there are other occasions with characters traveling to one location, all of who can be considered more “useful” than Sansa, and almost none of them make it to their destination unharmed.

    Even if she did escape and made it to Robb, then what would’ve happened? He just would’ve aranged another marriage for her to make up for one of his mistakes or end up at the Twins with her family. Worse, she could’ve ended up with Ramsay Snow.

    My only complaint is that she trust Ser Dontos. That guy was always creepy.

  • Julian , Direct link to comment

    Agree with mostly everything except the opinion that Robb is bratty. He has been victorious as the king of the north, and his mistake was leaving no garrison at his castle, but instead, trusting Theon. Robb’s flaw that he learned a great deal from is that he acted too trustingly. He trusted his mother, as well, and she decided to give the kingslayer back to the lannisters in exchange for her daughters.

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      Although I did have some issues with Robb’s characterization in season two, the comment about Robb actually came about while rereading the first book. It isn’t something he should be blamed for, as he is also a young guy in a situation that expects too much for him, but he does have a rather misguided reaction to both Tyrion’s return to Winterfell and the news about Benjen’s disappearance, to say the least.

  • Vlad , Direct link to comment

    Interesting analysis, but I feel like it misses the mark a bit. Is it Sansa’s femininity that gets her such harsh criticism, or her naivete? I would say the latter, and I would furthermore be *very* careful not to equate naivete with feminity. (As so many societal forces would have us do…) After all, as others have pointed out, there are plenty of other characters in the series who do a fine job of being both feminine and quite savvy. It’s not her spot-on parroting of socially acceptable behavior that makes her hard to deal with; it’s her slow pattern recognition when it comes to who and what to trust. Granted, that shouldn’t really be enough to trigger flat-out hate, and wishing for her to get raped is most certainly out of line, but watching her step nimbly out of the frying pan and into the fire repeatedly is galling, and, at least in my opinion, a more likely source of unpopularity than the fact that she knows which fork to use at dinner.

    • Alex , Direct link to comment

      Well they established that Jon Snow and Robb were also both naive. I guess the biggest difference aside from femininity is that the boys at least face the reality of death, while Sansa’s fantasy is unrealistic on all levels.

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      I agree that naivete is one of the traits that societal forces often expects from “feminine” women, and I do think that Sansa’s naivete is therefore *part* of the femininity that earns Sansa such a vitriolic response at times, rather than the fact that she’s well educated about social conventions. Not because girls or women who act in a stereotypically feminine way are naive, but because girls (especially girls in Westeros like Sansa) are often *encouraged* to be naive and then disliked and dismissed precisely because of that behavior. I agree, though, that Sansa is slow about learning who to trust, and that that might make her harder for some people to like… but she’s still a young girl in an impossible situation, where she can do little to help herself, but is completely surrounded by untrustworthy people. To Sansa, it must seem like she must find someone to trust or else she will remain forever at the hands of the Lannisters, and considering the choices available to her, she doesn’t do too badly at staying alive.

    • mea , Direct link to comment

      I do not see being naive as a bad thing per say. She trust people and that is part of her all loving nature.

  • Emmanuel Aguila (@EanAguila) , Direct link to comment

    Thanks for this article. I enjoyed reading it.

    My love for Sansa grew as I read book after book. But there are also other strong “feminine” characters in A Song of Ice and Fire like Margaery and Olenna Tyrell.

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      Luckily, most examples are moderated pretty quickly, but that disturbing undercurrent does exist. I’d rather not spend time googling for offensive things that I have mostly seen on Tumblr and in tweets, or forum posts that vanish soon afterwards.

      However, a quick google search brought up this forum discussion, which seems relevant. The original poster insists their statements were “satirical,” but seem to mean “hyperbolic”… but even stating such things as *exaggeration* is fairly disturbing, in my opinion.

    • Alex , Direct link to comment

      She’s already been raped in pretty much every sense except the literal one. And she almost got that too. So idk what they’re talking about.

  • Alex , Direct link to comment

    I see Sansa as a perfect foil to Cersei. Sansa is enamored with the Disney Princess archetype, but ultimately finds herself in a different story entirely where she must struggle to survive amongst some of the most despicable people imaginable. Cersei wanted to have more of a tomboyish Arya-type “strong female” character arc, but instead she was stuffed into the role of princess. This leaves them each similarly disillusioned for the polar opposite reasons.

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      Although I’ve thought a few times about how similar Cersei and Sansa are, I’d never noticed this! They have such a fascinating relationship.

  • c4tuna , Direct link to comment

    She’s an inaccessible character in the books to people who don’t understand what’s so exceptional about being a ‘wolf cub in the lion’s den’. She doesn’t have dragons or warging or gold or armies at her back, but she has an incredible tenacity and the empathy, courtesy, and self-control to keep on trucking where others would have run out of gas long ago.

    However, I find your thinly veiled resentment of people who don’t connect to her character to be no less ignorant of human nature than the sexism you vilify. Yes, it’s a shame that they cannot see what you see, but it’s also foolish to expect that they *can*. I think the show’s done a far better job than the books to make her, Theon, and Catelyn in particular more personable characters to people who would otherwise have a difficult time understanding their motives.

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      People can, of course, like or dislike whichever characters they choose. Everyone has different opinions on what makes a character a good one. However, I was interested/concerned with the fact that so *many* people hate Sansa (despite the fact that, unlike Theon, she is not presented as a villain character), and the level of vitriol that some people express against her. It’s the trend and the extremity of the reaction that I’m talking about, not the fact that individual people do not agree with my own feelings.

      • Dingo , Direct link to comment

        Theon isn’t presented as a “villainous” character, he’s presented as conflicted, pressured, and in turmoil. The moment that sealed his fate as an unwitting villain was when he burned the letter to Robb.

        Sansa, in the beginning, was just vapid and naive. She does have an interesting arc after that, though.

  • Dingo , Direct link to comment

    I hated her until she started having that odd relationship with the Hound. And, I was very happy with her role with Joffrey in the books (upcoming in the series). She saved Dontos’s life, so that’s got to be worth something. The thing that still irks me about her is that she never seemed to give a shit about Arya, even though Arya thinks about her and wants her, grudgingly, to be alright. 

    • Diana , Direct link to comment

      I think she’s pretty sure that Arya is already dead. She has no reason to think otherwise, and after her experiences with common people, she probably doesn’t believe her sister would survive even with all her will, alone in the road. She has no reason to believe Arya survived after she was kept enclosed in the Red Keep. Arya, on the other hand, is very much aware that Sansa is still alive, as Sansa is on court (until she flees) and she gets to hear things about court quite often – and she doesn’t really seem to worry until Sansa disappears from King’s Landing.

      It does bother me that she never cared the slightest about Jon, but he doesn’t seem to care much about her either… (although the point where she does think about him is so deeply warm that makes up for it)

  • Maximus Decimus , Direct link to comment

    Two cents:

    I believe that the main problem readers have with Sansa is not that she is feminine and fragile, it is that she takes waaay too long in the books to start learning that there is no one she can trust in King’s Landing. It is not that she is naive, is that she keeps being naive much later than what is expected from all her suffering.

    In the series, at least, they made her more hard, as in that part where she tells Tyrion that she prays for his return as she prays for Joffrey’s, while still maintaing the pure girl facade (if I recollect well, this is not part of the books). That was the kind of thing expected of her after all the suffering. However, since in the books it is all viewed from her point of view, we can see that she is still deluded that people may still treat her good, even though she should have known better.

    However, later in the books, she does finally grow as a character and start to have a more cynical view of what is told to her, which is what is expected. The only problem is that she should have changed much earlier.

  • Ben , Direct link to comment

    Sansa is most similar to Theon, and both a (rightly) disliked early on. Both are naively playing at the roles that they think society expects of them, always trying to impress everyone, with disasterous results for themselves and everyone around them.

    We end up liking, or at least pitying, both of them because of what they endure as a result of their own stupidity. Sansa gets a lot more positive growth than Theon, too.

    I’m surprised that anyone truely *hates* Sansa after Book 1, although I can understand them being disinterested. Personally I quite like her, and loved her interactions with the Hound.

    As others have pointed out, Sansa is one of the weakest main female characters. Not because she’s female, but because she’s weak. Just as Theon is weak. All the characters have their flaws, regardless of sex. And I think we see Sansa’s flaws repeated in male characters, who are similarly disliked for them.

    Long story short: nothing to see here 🙂

  • Holly , Direct link to comment

    Interesting post. I never really understood the Sansa hate. The first time I read the books I didn’t care much for her until the sack of King’s Landing when all of a sudden we are thrust into this deadly game and the woman’s war. Just sitting and waiting to die. That’s scary as hell. After that, and subsequent re reads, I’ve never grown to love her but I’ve never hated her. Her story is far too interesting for me to waste time hating on her. And, as you say, she is a survivor. She does what Arya can’t. She keeps her courtesy on the outside and her true thoughts inward. Sure her naivete is annoying but I love character arc and development and boy does she ever get one.
    I’ll admit to being pissed off when she gave away Ned’s plans but then, she was a love sick girl being taken away from a city she loved and she didn’t understand the reasons why. She was also extremely young and foolish. It was also inevitable. The law of good fiction and hero journeys says that the mentor, the father, the wizard or the guy with nothing to offer but answers to puzzles needs to die. It had to happen some how, and think about it, if she hadn’t done what she did everyone would be safe and happy and we would have no story. So while I was rolling my eyes at her stupidity, Cersei telling the tale to Tyrion pretty much summed it up.

    “She was practically wet with love. Until Joffrey cut off her father’s head and called it mercy. That put an end to that.”

    The only time I can truly say that I might have felt a little bit of hatred to Sansa? Her treatment of Tyrion after they are married. No, I’m not talking about not having sex with him, I would never expect that. I’m just referring to her behavior. We know and she should know that he’s a decent human being. He saved her several times in Clash of Kings, refused to touch her despite the Court mocking him and she can’t even kneel down to accept the robe at their wedding or speak to him as a person and not just through a three feet wall of courtesy armor? I get he’s a Lannister and she doesn’t trust anyone but he’s also treated her with nothing but kindness yet she is behaving in a bratty way, basically the speaking version of the “silent treatment”. Again, I know, she’s what 15? And expected to behave like this but it just made me angry. But not angry enough not to read her chapters or lose interest in her story. Or wish someone would rape her. Really people?

    The only characters I truly dislike and habitually skip their chapters both in the books and the series are Jon and Dany. Jon is far more naive, entitled and whiny than Sansa could try to be (she at least has manners) and his chapters pretty much revolve around honor, duty and why am I forced to do things that are SOOOO beneath me? Dany, meanwhile, was interesting at first but I think she’s just as crazy as her relatives and shudder at the thought of her ruling a country. Once again, entitled, self righteous, ignorant, whiny, power mad and a little blood thirsty. These are not good qualities in a Monarch, I don’t care how many cute widdle dragons she’s got. Oh and any character from the Iron Islands. I hate and am bored with all of them equally.

    • onegirl , Direct link to comment

      She’s not 15. She’s TWELVE. And she never mistreated Tyrion. She was just polite, courteous and distant. The only Lannisters who treat Tyrion better than Sansa does are Jaime, Tommen and Myrcella.

  • Sharon , Direct link to comment

    Yes. Yes. Yes. Love this thread.

    I love that GRRM shows us that ‘fighting’ – with swords and weapons isn’t always winnable, and there is a high cost. I love that he shows the battles of wits and minds that go into wielding real power, rather than just physical power.

    I also love that Sansa isn’t the stereotypical tomboy heroine. (And I do love Arya too – but she is that stereotype).

    I love that GRRM has given us a girl who as young girls do, believes the dreams and fairy tales and who is obedient and compliant, and seems to have the fairy tale come true …for a short while.

    And then it all turns ugly.

    And she not only survives – she smartens up, learns that people politics is everywhere and that she can be beaten up by it, or learn how to play it herself. All these horrible experiences, and she has few, but crucial choices to make – and though she doesn’t always make good ones – she learns from each one.

    I suspect she may never wield a sword. But she may yet come into her own power. I suspect that power will be rooted in her beauty, her sexuality and her intelligence. I think when Cersei told her that tears aren’t a woman’s only weapon, her best one is between her legs…..that Sansa heard….didn’t know what to do with that information – but she will later. I think Sansa may avoid rape – but make a strategic decision about when and with whom to give up her virginity – and that it won’t be ‘romantic’ – it will be about her becoming powerful.

    So far Sansa has been thrown about with all that’s happened, and has floated not drowned, but she’s been taken along where other people and events have led her. I think we are all waiting to see if she chooses to swim….where to, and why?

    I think, given she thinks she has little or no family left, she will make a decision what it is she wants for herself. That maybe she decides that even if there are no true knights – she wishes to be a true Queen or Lady. And then it will be interesting to see what it is she has learned from court politics and the machinations of power.

  • JR , Direct link to comment

    I came around to Sansa by the third book. At first I thought, bratty all the way. But when Lady was slaughtered, and Joffrey started beating her – wow, I got…not impressed, but rather understanding of her situation.
    I think it’s interesting that, for all the differences of Sansa and Arya, they both hold their hates and vengeance close: Arya recites, every night, who she wants dead, while Sansa never loses her boldness of small rebellions that people can’t act against.
    What I do take issue with is her disgust with Tyrion and Jon. Even though everybody was whispering in her ear that they were despicable…Jon’s her brother, and I’m a big believer in family, and Tyrion takes all this abuse because of her and never complains.

  • Parag , Direct link to comment

    I hated Sansa in the first Book, chiefly because of two of her reactions (aside from her personality and relationship dynamics with Jon/Arya):

    Lying about Joffrey and getting Lady killed and Nymeria had to be abandoned by Arya.

    Revealing Ned Stark’s plans to Cersei Lannister.

    But as the series progresses, I realized that she was just brainwashed early on like most highborn girls, and unlike Arya she believed all the nonsense. But, slowly and surely, she’s adapting and will be groomed to be a powerful player by Littlefinger in The Game of Thrones.

    On a side note, now I hate Eddard Stark more than Sansa. Sansa did what she did in AGoT because that was what she was conditioned to believe and act simply that from such an early age. On the other hand, Ned Stark is a veteran. In spite of that, he revealed, like a total retard, to Cersei Lannister, the knowledge he had about her children, and trusted Littlefinger instead of taking her children hostage. Sure, it fits with his character about being honorable and his and Sansa’s actions essentially push the plot further…still I hate and admire him. Here, Eddard is shown to be much more naive than Sansa (The chief reason why most people hate Sansa is her naivety, although that is a direct result of her “girly training”)

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      I had a really similar reaction to both Sansa and Ned. When I read Game of Thrones, I definitely saw Ned as the hero, and was really frustrated with Sansa. But now, even though Ned is definitely a good character, I find him completely infuriating. He definitely contributes to his own downfall, far more than Sansa does, by convincing himself that the Lannisters are more evil than they actually are, and, at the same time, completely underestimating how they’ll react to a threat. For a leader who has already survived one brutal war, I find this beyond frustrating.

    • Robert , Direct link to comment

      I always thought there was a similarity between Ned and Sansa; whether you call it ‘naiveté’ or simply stupidity, the fact is that they both end up completely out of their depths when confronted with the villainy of the southern lords and ladies. One early difference between the two, of course, is that Sansa is drawn giddily to the princes, pomp and pageantry of King’s Landing, while the cold heart of Eddard Stark is loath to depart the familiarity and relative safety of Winterfell, making the journey south solely for the benefit of his old friend, King Robert Baratheon.

      However, I can’t find it in my heart to dislike or hate either Sansa or Ned.

      Sansa may have revealed Ned’s intentions to Cersei, but she did so out of normal pre-teen frustration with her parents, having faced the proposition of being parted from her future husband and king, Joffrey, and thrust back into the cold of the North to be married off to a lesser family (perhaps a Bolton, or a Frey). It is worth noting that Sansa was among the first characters to leap to Ned’s defence in the court of King Joffrey, and actively tried to play down the accusations against her father after his arrest. She also made an emotional plea to her beloved ‘Joff’ for her father’s survival, albeit on the condition of sending him to the Wall (arguably a longer, more drawn-out version of death, but no less inevitable).

      So Sansa, an 11-year-old highborn girl, attempted to negotiate mercy for her father with a cruel and unpredictable young king, thus risking accusations of treason against herself in the process. That sounds like quite a brave action from the young Sansa, in my view – the type of action that is only possible when a person is afraid, to paraphrase Ned’s earlier advice to his son Bran.

      Ned, on the other hand, made the grievous error of trusting Petyr Baelish with the details of his investigation into the royal lineage. This was a man that he knew to be envious of him for marrying his childhood love, Catelyn Tully, and who bore Ned and House Stark no love for having wounded his pride years before. Trusting Littlefinger was a mortally foolish decision, on Ned’s part, exacerbated by Littlefinger’s constant jabs reminding Ned not to trust him. Had he listened, things would perhaps have turned out differently.

      I’m inclined to agree that Ned dropped the ball by failing to ally himself with Renly Baratheon on the eve of his arrest. Renly’s proposition (holding the Baratheon/Lannister children captive until his evidence could be brought before the court) was immoral and dangerous, but arguably would have have set the record straight on the Lannister twins’ fornications, and their subverting the monarchy from within. But old honest Ned, full of honour and heavy of heart, refuses to dishonour Robert’s dying hours by pursuing Renly’s plan.

      In my eyes, and with some exceptions (siring bastard sons, and so on), Ned would always do the right thing, but often at the wrongest of moments. Though I think to myself what a fool Ned was, I still can’t hate him for it, no more than I could hate Sansa for acting the way she had been conditioned to. If the ASOIAF books have taught me anything, it’s that people need to adapt to their conditions in order to survive; Sansa did, Ned didn’t.

    • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

      Except Nymeria was abandoned before Sansa went before the court, Sansa was “dizzy from the wine” when it happened and shouldn’t have been called up in the first place, and Lady’s death was a cheap shot by Cersei that had nothing to do with anything Sansa said. So your criticisms are not valid there.

  • Kavita Singh , Direct link to comment

    I’ve tried very hard to like Sansa and I’ve partly succeeded. She’s a character I would like to like because she’s beautiful, kind, a survivor and that she can see the good in some pretty nasty people as long as they are kind to her. On the other hand, she’s a bit brainless. She might eventually develop some of the cunning that will help in maneuvering socially but she hasn’t demonstrated any will of her own. I give her credit for wanting to toss Joffrey off that bridge but after that, she went back to being a singing bird in a cage; all words and empty in the head. Also, I want to say that blaming “girly training” is ridiculous. Think of most of the characters in the series, both highborn and lowborn, and think of how many of them simply believed wholesale in the “role of a woman”. Not even prim, lady like Margaery Tyrell acted as blithely and stupidly as Sansa. The girl has her good points but it seems to me that she may always need a man to do her thinking.

    • Amber , Direct link to comment

      Except Margaery had Olenna Tyrell who is one of the most cunning woman I have seen so far. Olenna would make sure that Marg would not be naive in this world of men. She would armer her with her woman hood. Sansa never had this. She was not raised to be cunning. She was raised with becomming a good wife.

      Sansa was brainwashed for years. You don’t undo a brainwashing that quickly. Just look at our world for example. Almost every single person alive is brainwashed into something. Like that you need shampoo for clean hair. Not true, in fact shampoo helps make your hair greasy. Just one example of many. If the whole world is brainwashed into something, you can not expect an 11 year old or any child for that matter to be above that. Arya was not smart enough to not fall for the brainwashing. She just has a different personality. All tomboys would have ishues with the typical lady role. That does not make them smarter or unbrainwashed. It just makes them different. (Tomboy myself, yet I started to love Sansa more then Arya over the course of the books and tv seasons). That Sansa needs a man to do her thinking is not true. In fact I’d argue she is one of the most intelligent people in the show. What holds her back was her naiviti, which is a huge part to blaim on 11 years of brainwashing. You can not expect a child to just undo that after 1 event. In fact that so many people hate Sansa so badly strikes me as funy, because they hate her for being naive, yet all of the starks have been naive. And how that is something to hate a person for strikes me as weird. Being Naive and trusting people means you are kind. You don’t see the worst in people. That is in fact much better to be then to be so distrustfull. It’s something to be admired, not to hate. Does it help teh starks in this cruel world? No it doesn’t. But if any world needs a little kindness now in then it is that world. How can that world become kinder, if all kind people become cruel? We need characters who keep the ability to be able to trust people. To be more then just a cunning game player. Being a cunning game player is not something to be proud of. Being a kind human being is. NOne the less Sansa is proving herself to become more cunning. I just hope it will not be at the expence of her kindness. People mistake her kindness for being stupid. She is not stupid. She is young, with years of stereo type raising programmed into her whole being, who got equaly traumatised as Arya yet does not have the luxery of killing her enemies. Instead she is forced to endure because a girl her age in her position can’t do anything else because she would be dead if she as much as tried. Arya would have been dead in 48 hours there. Sansa is not brainless. She is kind with a shelterd upbringing, young and traumatised. I think very few people would have been able to act like she had. But it’s easy to judge her from a safe spot behind a screen or behind a book. Yet despite her raising, despite her hurt and fear, despite her kindness, she learns the game. She grows. Not more smart, but more aware of how the world she lives in works. She was never stupid, just misguided and lied too. Something her parents are not to be blamed for either because they also where tought this. It is part of how humans do things there. It’s not just Sansa. It’s generations on generations who is brainwashed to fit into a mold. And if anyone thinks the current world is any different then that anyone is just as naive if not more then Sansa is. Sansa only had her parents and septa and other people who where raised with those believs teaching her. We have internet, we have so many information at our fingertips. yet so many of us go trough life with a few or a lot of brainwashings in our life. Brainwashing is a powerfull thing. It should not be discarded so quickly. And once more, most of the other ”strong” woman in Game of thrones had different upbringings, are older (not wiser, just more hurt in life) and have been able to learn the hard way their fairy tale promises where not real, or had people like Olenna preventing 100% stereo type brainwashed upbringing. It;s unfair that a child gets compared to woman, or teens who had more room and different upbringings. Sansa was at a disatvantage the whole time, yet despite that was able to adapt, endure and survive. WHich is much more then most people in her position would have been able to do. She is strong and smart in doing what she does with what she is given in the short time she had to shif everything she ever learned and deal with a real nightmare. As for a man needing to her thinking. Thats not happening. A man is teaching her how the game of thrones are played, just like other people tought Arya how to fight. Arya and Sansa are different in their ways of survival. Which is a good thing because neither would have survived in the others shoes. Because they do things differently, they also need different teachers. Big difference is that most of Arya’s teachers are genuinly out to teach her as a mentor of sort. While Sansa is stuck with a guy who seems to have none healthy thoughts about her…once more Sansa has to deal with somebody that is dangerous to her. Littlefinger. He is both her enemie and her friend. And Sansa has to be carefull with him, yet not shut him out for he is the only one who can teach her anything usefull at this point. Arya had more luck in terms of people helping her. Sansa can, does, and will think for herself, and I think many people will regret having underestimated her intelligence and strenght later on. (Many people as in many people in westeros, not fans. MOst fans seem to understand Sansa after going beyond the beginning. It;’s just that the haters are more vocal 😛 As Haters usualy are. )

      This post comes from somebody who is a tomboy herself, and dislikes girly girls, so I didn’t like Sansa at all at the beginning. Note that I say Dislike, not hate. I can never hate any child for being different then I was. She was just not the type I’d hang with. However as the story grows more serious I have come to really understand and respect her a great deal. And am surprised by how many people fail to see it. (Or let themselves be brainwashed into a popular opinion just because she made a few, understandable, errors as a NORMAL CHILD, doing exactly what she was raised to do…it makes no sense to me. I get people being annoyed by it..but this hate is seriously over the top..I’d expect more from game of thrones/song of ice and fire. She did nothing with the intention of hurting or being cruel. She was just a girl in love, acting as she was SUPPOSED too. She is jugded way to harshly for something almost EVERY MODERN girl would do this day, and that is WITH acces to INternet and other information then just what parents teach you. The hate is sick. But it does show nicely how bad people can be. If in a story filled with power hungry, manipulative, murderers, rapists, etc. a young girl is hated for being exactly that, a young girl, it shows how far humans have fallen. Our world is in no ways better then the world of Game of thrones, which a lot of reactions online show. We just seem more sivil thanks to some laws keeping us in check, but in all honesty people are not any more noble/kind or nice in our world, Which I find rather depressing. Lets stop hating young girls for not being a cunning powerhungry distrusting sword wielding mary sue shall we? Sansa is a believable, realistic character, who grows in a believable and realistic pace considering her past. And I love she has not been turned into some overpowerd stereo type strong woman. I love my tomboys. I lover Merida from Brave, I used to Love Arya (untill she became all kill happy. I understand revange, enjoying death however..thats just one step I’m not comfortable with. Still like her..but she is dropping in my list) but Sansa is refreshing for being a normal girl turning young woman who finds her way in a world to cruel for her and learns how to deal with it and hopefully, come out on top withoud losing her kindness completely.

      End of super long rant 😛
      Sorry for spelling errors. I have dyslexia.

    • onegirl , Direct link to comment

      “I give her credit for wanting to toss Joffrey off that bridge but after that, she went back to being a singing bird in a cage; all words and empty in the head.”
      Except when she risked getting beaten by saving Ser Dontos Hollard only with words. And when she took Cersei’s place during the battle of Blackwater.
      Her head was totally empty after the Red Wedding. But then again, if you read Martin’s descriptions of her properly, she was catatonic or close to it.

  • , Direct link to comment

    I loved your words on defending my favorite character in ASOIAF!! your last paragraph brought tears to my eyes because it was so well-expressed and i think that sansa is like a breath of fresh air in my experience because she is feminine yet remains good throughout the entire 5 novels. i’ve always liked Scarlett O’Hara & Becky Sharp a lot, protagonists who embraise their feminity full-heartedly, but in the end social climbing and surviving at all costs end up tormenting them for years on end, whereas we see Sansa Stark enduring so many emotional and physical abuse for so long, and yet she hasn’t been broken or beaten down, and i can only imagine great things for her, whether she becomes a queen, lady of winterfell, regent to rickon, or just a happy wife with children, she will i hop be allowed to choose for herself the path she wants to take- which would be quite the thing in Westeros, so yeah, thanks for defending Sansa so well!! 😀

  • Bia , Direct link to comment

    I never hated her for being stupid, naive or feminine. Other characters have the same qualities and are well-loved. Sansa was disloyal to her family and unbelievably selfish even for a eleven-year old. Joffrey threatened to hurt Mika very badly, she didn´t care for it. When Arya reacted, Joffrey ran after her with a SWORD in hand saying that he would KILL her sister and all she could think about was how they were ruin HER dream! Arya is a (lovely) brat, but she´s her sister, and Joffrey just some lad that she just met. After that she went after him saying “oh, my poor prince”. She is to blame for Lady´s death and she should be willing to lie to protect Arya, but she wouidn´t even say the truth, even as Robert was urging her to, reminding her that lying to a king is treason. She saw Joffrey and Cersei cruelty then and still she chose to trust them instead her father. She also despised Jon and reacted to Mika`s murder as if Arya was complaining over the death of a cockroach. That showed that she only cared for high-born people and that´s not sweet to me. After Ned´s death she started to see the people around her, but even then she wasn´t able to reflect upon her role in her father´s murder and still blamed Arya for Lady´s death.
    She´s changing, but not enough to make me forgive her.

    • runes , Direct link to comment

      woah- chill… no one said she was perfect. author was just pointing out the extra scrutiny sansa gets cause shes a giril versus for example what theon gets even though hes a steaming turd. fans still humanize him with this whole “he was socialized that way” and almost “boys will be boys” mentality. sansa gets no slack or humanization like theon does. i see more posts from fans humanizing viserys than i do sansa LOL and thats all abt ppl wanting to sympathize more with guys with troubled circumstances who take the wrong path than girls w/ similarly crap circumstances who take the wrong path.

      also come on ragging on joffery would have also fucked her and her family over in the long run- there was no winning either way ned and catelyn would have gone to see what was up with bran’s attempted murder and jon arryn and the shit would have hit the fan w/ the lannisters.

      • Bia , Direct link to comment

        I think she’s got extra scrunity because she’s a Stark, and the Starks are supposed to be noble and just, and she’s selfish, brainless and coward. I think that was the point of getting Lady killed, it’s symbolic that Sansa is the real bastard in the family. Also, Theon is humanized because his character was much better developed, his conflicts explained and he suffered a lot, physically and emotionally. He was punished for his sins. I don’t mean Sansa should go through the same, just that readers can’t hate him anymore after that, and I would like Sansa if she realized how wrong she was, and she didn’t. She never thinks. Theon truly regrets what he’s done, he understands why he done such terrible things and so do we. Sansa, on the other hand, is a mystery.
        Her age doesn´t explain her behaviour and the way she thinks, because Bran (not to mention Arya) is younger and he’s not like that, he cares about others. Being “girly brainwashed” doesn’t explain either because other girly-girls are smarter, and her mother showed more than once that emphatizes with others regardless of the social status. Catelyn would at least feel sorry for Mika.
        Also, Sansa didn’t have to rage against Joffrey, she just had to tell the truth.

        • Bia , Direct link to comment

          I just realized that Bran is not a good example after his crush with Meera. But it doesn’t change the fact that being eleven doesn’t justify her not care if Arya lives or dies.
          And I disagree that Sansa is more realistic than Arya. GRRM shows us that one of the reasons Arya chose to be a tomboy is the fact that’s the only way she found not to be on her sister’s shadow. Arya’s POV is full of complaints that she can’t sing, sow, dance, play and do a lot of other things just as well as her sister, and she’s punished for it, for not being Sansa, even though she’s younger, has less time of practice and therefore cannot be expected to be as good. At one point Arya thinks that when she was born, there was nothing left for her, so she decided to not try anymore, because she always get bad feedback for her efforts. When given the chance of doing something different, and is has support (Jon, Ned, the water dance teacher…) she takes it.
          A lot a like Brienne, she doens’t fit one role so she tries another. We don’t know Sansa so deeply, we don’t know why her values were so different from her family, even her mother. That’s what is frustrating.

        • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

          because she’s a Stark, and the Starks are supposed to be noble and just

          But then why isn’t Robb hated for his mistakes? He caused the Red Wedding by sleeping with and then marrying Jeyne. He accidentally helped the Lannisters at the Battle of Blackwater. He (and Catelyn) lost the Karstarks. These are seen as tragedies coming about through various people’s choices and actions, unhappy coincidences that nobody realized would end in so much bloodshed.

          Sansa’s mistakes are in the same line. Her poor choices are also part of these chains of bad decisions, but people treat them as isolated incidents. Never mind that Joffrey lied, that Nymeria hurt him, that the adults made a complete bosh of the situation – Sansa refused to back up either story because of her conflicting long-term interests, it’s her fault Lady died and serves her right for not having a wolf later when she needed protection. Never mind that Ned showed his hand to Cersei, that he failed to have a backup plan, that he didn’t really explain to Sansa why they needed to leave – it’s her fault he died, end of story.

          Sansa’s treatment after her father’s death is absolutely horrible, I don’t see how you can seriously claim she suffered nothing and wasn’t punished. Theon went on much longer before he began to be redeemed. Other “girly girls” in the books are significantly older and/or haven’t had as many opportunities to fuck everything up.

          Arya makes good decisions from the beginning because she fits in the stereotype/archetype of the tomboyish noble girl, which usually involves being able to see through courtly manners (usually from disliking them). But the reason people point out that she’s so young is not that nobody around 11/12 is ever perfectly clear-headed and generous and wonderful, it’s that it’s somewhat extraordinary when they are, so it’s unfair to hold them all to that standard.

          • Bia , Direct link to comment

            How did Robb helped the Lannisters in the battle of Blackwater?
            Robb made a terrible mistake by sleeping with Jeyne, but he had weight of the world on his shoulders. Nevermind, still a mistake. Then, he married her. Another terrible mistake, a very stupid one, but honorable too. He disgraced himself so he could protect Jeyne’s reputation. It was not really his fault that he lost the Karstarks.
            First, they attempt against Jaime’s life despite the fact that he was under Robb’s protection, as a captive. He had to punish them, otherwise his authority would be seriously compromised. Then his own mother used her influence to set him free. He should have put her in shackles, but he couldn’t kill her like a betrayer she is, not only because he loves her, but because he would be cursed. It’s a great taboo.
            On the other hand, we know that Theon despite everything he’s done, loved Robb like a little brother so trusting him was reasonable given the circumstances.

            “Sansa’s mistakes are in the same line. Her poor choices are also part of these chains of bad decisions, but people treat them as isolated incidents. Never mind that Joffrey lied, that Nymeria hurt him, that the adults made a complete bosh of the situation – Sansa refused to back up either story because of her conflicting long-term interests, it’s her fault Lady died and serves her right for not having a wolf later when she needed protection. Never mind that Ned showed his hand to Cersei, that he failed to have a backup plan, that he didn’t really explain to Sansa why they needed to leave – it’s her fault he died, end of story.”

            I’m sorry, but Sansa’s mistakes are not in the same line. She didn’t make any mistakes for honor. She wasn’t betrayed by her family or friends that she had known her whole life. She was the betrayer.
            She lied to protect a sociopath instead of protecting her sister. How is her interest to marry a boy who beats children, younger, weaker and unarmed? He could only be an abusive husband.

            What would happen to Arya if Nymeria hadn’t hurt Joffrey?
            How being eleven years old explains one feeling nothing towards the fact that an inocent kid got chopped to pieces, that kid is one’s sister’s friend and she is hurt, and that one still feels nothing?

            The problem with first book Sansa is that she doesn’t care about anyone but herself. And is not about age. One thing is you not care if other kid doesn’t the same toys as you, another is not care if other kid was murdered by orders of your future mother-in-law or even your bethroted. And not care that your future husband could have killed your own sister. How is it too much to ask?

            That much care is level 1 human being.
            Nevermind her lying. Let’s say she was too scared to utter a word. But afterwards a boy got murdered and she thought that she was the one who suffered an unjustice, because of Lady.

            And if was Cersei who demanded Lady’s death, it was pretty clear what kind of person she was: cruel, unjust. How telling a cruel, unjust woman doesn’t qualify as telling someone of his father’s plans?

            I’m not saying that she’s to blame for Ned’s death, or that her actions were the most grievous. I’m saying her motives were the worse or at least not clear. Ned showed his hand to Cersei because he didn’t want her kids to suffer, he didn’t arrest them while he could because Robert was still alive and he didn’t want go against his King.
            Robb wouldn’t have any problem if the just left Jeyne alone, but he didn’t for the sake of her honor. He cared more about her than himself. Plus, both Ned and Robb died for their mistakes. Not saying that Sansa should die, but is not that interesting dwelling over the mistakes of the dead.

            Even Theon, he was a douchebag, then a murderer, then a child murderer, but had a more complex conflict. He was conflicted between his house, his family, who treated him bad but he didn’t remember that part exactly and his captors, with whom he spent half of his life, who treated him better than his own family, but captivity still hurt.
            He wanted to be heir to his father, wanted to get back the respect of his family, but wanted also to be Ned, to have the love and respect that Winterfell’s people had for their lord. He was divided by two opposite loyaties
            and he tried to reconcile them. Two people he loved. And after all the horrible things he’ s done, he regreted, he truly admitted his wrongs and regreted, felt guilty, his actions hurt him, not because he was tortured but because he cares.

            Sansa had family and her own well being on one side and social status on the other and she chose the last. She didn’t love Joffrey, she loved his rank. All she cared about was that he was Prince, didn’t matter that he was cruel, a liar, a coward.
            Ned’s death hurt her, she suffered a lot, but even after that she never gives her actions and her motives a single thought, she never lamented for poor Mycah or reflected what her father meant by “not tell anyone”, or her treatment of her sister. She never regreted.

            She does changes the way she sees other people afterwards, but she never looks back.

            And the fact that she is a Stark and she’s the only (super) entitled (yes, Jon is a little bit entitled) selfish lying brat is meaningful.
            The family’s values normally influence one’s character. The Ned Stark’s family values says that the noble, the powerful should protect the weak. She should be shocked, terrified and ofended by Cersei and Joffrey.

            Anyone even by age 11 should feel the same actually.

            • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

              Robb accidentally helped the Lannisters by throwing them back and sending Tywin’s army to King’s Landing, rather than keeping them in a chase until Stannis got there to help smash them. If Tywin hadn’t turned back, there wouldn’t have been enough Lannister forces at Blackwater. I know Robb’s mistakes were mistakes, that’s my point – he makes avoidable mistakes as well as Sansa, but his are seen as understandable and tragic while hers are seen as despicable. Sleeping with Jeyne wasn’t done for honor. He didn’t fail to achieve his objective with Stannis and Tywin because

              The whole Arya-Joffrey-Mycah incident is more complex than “she lied when she should have told the truth, end of.” Arya hit the heir to the throne with a stick in the back of the head, hard enough to bleed; Nymeria could have stopped Joffrey without actually breaking the skin, but she didn’t. When Sansa lied to try to help both sides (she could have said true things that would have gotten Arya in trouble, remember), Arya physically attacked her. But also, there are several books after GoT, and if people can handle Jaime being redeemed – unless you’re excusing his pushing Bran out the window because he did it for family? – then certainly Sansa’s later storyline should be considered when condemning her as a character. Again, one has to ask why the unwillingness to do so in the case of the little girl.

              Losing Lady was an injustice, even if it wasn’t as big of one as Mycah dying. Lady did nothing and may have never done anything violent or uncontrollable in her life, if she’d been allowed to live. No, Sansa was not in the right, here, and she was still in her thoughtless aristocratic ways of not considering the smallfolk, but losing Lady – considering the psychic/magic bond the kids have with their wolves – is a huge deal. And the thing about Mycah is, he was dead before Sansa held her tongue. He was dead from the moment he ran and Sandor went after him, which puts the majority of the blame on his and Joffrey’s shoulders, with a little bit on Arya’s for not handling the situation better.

              Ned showed his hand to Cersei because he was honorable and noble, but in the end it also derived from a failure to understand how ruthless she was. (The fact that she managed to regain Sansa’s trust is a testament to how good she is at manipulation, and how much Robert frightened Sansa.) It is interesting to “dwell” over the mistakes of the dead, because people act like Sansa’s the only one who made mistakes, or that her mistakes are the most important, and if you’re going to maintain that you need to compare them to the mistakes of people who got themselves killed.

              Sansa can’t look back. She has to use all of her brains and ability to protect herself in the present. Mycah’s death was tragically pointless, but you can’t reasonably expect her to spend time on it when her father was killed in front of her, as was her aunt, and she’s witnessed battles that have killed thousands.

              She’s not “an entitled selfish lying brat”, sorry. You seem to have read the books, yet your characterization of her is grounded in the first one. She’s suffered and changed, and just because she’s focused on survival instead of repentance doesn’t make her entitled or selfish or a brat. What does she think she’s entitled to, at the present time? At most, she’d like someone to love her for herself and not for her position. (Everyone in these books lies, so I’m not really taking that one too seriously.)

              Anyone even by age 11 should feel the same actually.

              Nah. That’s a silly opinion. But it’s nice to know you were never, ever fooled by anyone before you hit puberty.

              • Bia , Direct link to comment

                ‘ “Anyone even by age 11 should feel the same actually.”

                Nah. That’s a silly opinion. But it’s nice to know you were never, ever fooled by anyone before you hit puberty.’

                I got fooled a lot of times. Even now. But not by a child murderer, who killed my pet and wanted my sister maimed.
                If you think that’s trivial, that is not enough to impress a 11 year-old girl and you would be fooled just the same, than you are a terrible human being, just like book 1 Sansa. Ask yourself, would you, really? Notice that this wasn’t a random death on the news, it was a kid, your sister’s friend, someone you know, ordered by someone you also know.

                ” The whole Arya-Joffrey-Mycah incident is more complex than “she lied when she should have told the truth, end of.” Arya hit the heir to the throne with a stick in the back of the head, hard enough to bleed; Nymeria could have stopped Joffrey without actually breaking the skin, but she didn’t. When Sansa lied to try to help both sides (she could have said true things that would have gotten Arya in trouble, remember), Arya physically attacked her. ”

                Arya did made things worse, but she did so to protect her friend. And she realized that, and suffered and blamed herself a lot, even though she’s the younger one in the whole situation. You may think that her intentions are not relevant, that the likes of Mycah are doomed to be play things and punch bags to the likes of Joffrey so why care? That depends much on how high justice is on your value scale.
                But that doesn’t change the fact that Arya acted to protect her friend, moved by a sense of justice; that Robb could have suffered no consequence for having sex with Jeyne if he just have let her disgrace herself; that Ned warned Cersei to protect her children. They all made mistakes, terrible ones, but their hearts were in the right place. That’s not interesting? You must be a Lannister fan then. It’s a lot harder doing right and not get screw over than screwing others over for your own benefit.
                Sansa on the other hand, worries that Mycah and her sister being in physical danger ruin everything for her. Can you blame Arya for physically attack her? Really? How did exactly her lie helped both sides? Why should she help Joffrey’s side?
                I think she wanted to help herself, because that’s what we know from her point of view at that point.
                And I think she wasn’t fooled, she did it to herself. She commited to anything but becoming a queen, that’s why she chose to blame Arya for Lady’s death instead of Cersei, why she was in state of denial towards Joffrey’s real character. That’s not love at all, that’s ambition desguised as a infatuation because it was hard to admit to herself that becoming a queen is more important than almost anything. And Cersei would not acknowledge that either because she looks down on Sansa, she wouldn’t admit that they were a lot alike.

                By the way: Nymeria showed a great amount of self-restraint when attacking Joffrey. She’s a direwolf, a big scary wild animal, and he was attacking her master. It was more likely that she would rip his throat open like Summer did to the man sent to kill Bran.

                Joffrey had a real sword, while Arya and Mycah were playing with sticks. That is serious, if Sansa had told the truth, Arya’s “attack” would be irrelevant. Joffrey bled, but he was mildly hurt actually. What really hurt him was the fact that he was overpowered by a skinny little nine year old, he being 13 and really tall for his age. Renly mocked him, he knows he behaved all whiny, for a scratch when he should be hardened for leadership, for battle, like his father.

                Robb didn’t throw Tywin’s army back to King’s Landing, he planned to make them chase them all over the Riverlands. It was his uncle that wanted to be a hero and disobeyed him.

                On the point of evolved Sansa, she is the one who is getting better, when the others are falling into disgrace. But she didn’t have a lot to do to scape her situation, she was traped, and I think it gives one a lot of time and occasion to reflect upon life. When she does look back, it is still bad. One moment when she was with Margaery she thought how unfair it was for her to have a sister like Arya. Her probably raped and dead sister, not the sister she sees everyday. That’s how sweet she is.

                • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

                  Once you tell someone they’re a terrible person just because they think Sansa’s not a worthless, unforgivable character, you have proved yourself pointless to argue with. I didn’t even bother reading the rest of your comment, as it’s obviously ridiculously overblown.

                  • Bia , Direct link to comment

                    Your kind of argument is “your opinion is silly” and I am overblown.
                    Never said she is worthless, not that is unforgivable. She is unforgiven so far. And that her feelings and motivations are nearly sociopath. I didn’t accused you, I made an assumption, I tried to make you think if you would feel the same, you would understand if you bothered to read the rest.

                    • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

                      “That’s a silly opinion” =/= “you must be a terrible person”. Do you understand the difference between “silly” and “terrible”? Or “your opinion” and “your personality”? And you are basically saying Sansa’s actions in the first few chapters of the first book should overshadow everything else she does, that sounds a lot like saying what she did then was not forgivable.

                      The idea that your particular moral objection to Sansa should be universal is silly, and frankly, your reading of the scene and storyline – that Sansa actively lied, that she should have only felt anger toward Cersei and Joffrey – is simplistic.

                    • Bia , Direct link to comment

                      “that she should have only felt anger toward Cersei and Joffrey – is simplistic.” It is simplistic, it is simple. I asked before why should Sansa help Joffrey, why should she still want to marry him. What else could she feel toward Cersei and Joffrey? If you know what, tell me.
                      My whole point is that she gets less symphathy because of her motivations, that are considered far less noble than other characters who also made mistakes, worse mistakes even, lot worse. Because she doesn’t think of her actions even afterwords. (Back to the dead characters, they can’t regret ,because they are dead. ) Not because she can sew, sing, dance, etc. The story shows that those are not useless skills at all. Arya actually envy those skills, she is a tomboy also because she can’t compete with Sansa, that completely overshadow her in that sense. As I said before.
                      My comments are focused in book 1 because this article says that people who critize Sansa do so for prejudice of her lady-like manners, and so do you. My point is that it is not the case. It is because of what I and others (also in this comments) think are moral flaws. My particular moral objection is not universal but is not unique.

                • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

                  ” How did exactly her lie helped both sides? Why should she help Joffrey’s side?”

                  Because it put her in a neutral position where she could have potentially smoothed things over and bridged the gap between them.

                  What she said at that tribunal would not be a deciding factor as to whether or not she’d be queen, but Joffrey’s attitude towards her. And if Joffrey’s feelings towards her are negative, it puts her, and, by extension, her entire family, in danger.

                  “Sansa on the other hand, worries that Mycah and her sister being in physical danger ruin everything for her. ”

                  No, she worries it will ruin everything in general. Because it does and will and results in violence.

                  “I think she wanted to help herself, because that’s what we know from her point of view at that point.”

                  I wasn’t aware that there was a secret chapter in which the trial was told from Sansa’s point of view. My version of the book has it from Ned’s point of view, you see. And in it, I saw an eleven year old girl dragged before her future legal owners to call one of them a psycho.

                  “That’s not love at all, that’s ambition desguised as a infatuation because it was hard to admit to herself that becoming a queen is more important than almost anything.”

                  Please don’t ever make attempts at character analysis again. Really? Being queen was more important than almost anything? Yes, Sansa wants to be queen because she’s told from day one that that is the best thing a woman can be. But JFC, she’s not some ruthless social climber. She was put on the track to become queen by her father. Oh, and being queen involves her literally becoming the LEGAL PROPERTY of a king in a country where there are long and storied histories of kings abusing the shit out of their queens. Sansa did not forge or continue the betrothal: Ned did. She had no control over whether or not she’d remained betrothed to Joffrey. The only thing she does actively in regards to maintaining her betrothal is going to Cersei, and not because she’s selfish and ambitious, but because her father had pulled the rug right out from under her and was canceling her entire future with no explanation. She was terrified of Joffrey disliking her, and that is a completely understandable and legitimate fear. Because, once again, Joffrey would someday legally own her and be allowed to beat, abuse, and rape her at his whim. And target her family. Playing along with the Lannisters, making nice with them, is survival. It’s the same thing that drives her to beg for her father’s life and write the letters home. Yes, she deluded herself into thinking the fight wasn’t Joffrey’s fault and that he was Prince Charming, but it wasn’t out of ruthless ambition, it was out of a need to not have her entire worldview come crashing down around her and spare herself a psychological break. Guess what? Admitting what happened to herself means also admitting to herself that her father is knowingly selling her off to a violent and psychotic boy. So yeah, telling herself that it was Arya’s fault is a way for her to avoid a psychotic break and keep herself safe.

                  (Seriously, hum, if you’re going to say Sansa’s a terrible person for this, then you’re going to have to say Ned’s a monster. He willfully and knowingly decided to betroth his daughter to a dangerous family, and continued to do so after what happened).

                  “One moment when she was with Margaery she thought how unfair it was for her to have a sister like Arya. ”

                  No, she thinks that about Myrcella in book one (right when Arya’s being a brat). She thinks of Margaery as the type of sister she’d have liked to have. Which… isn’t cruelty to Arya, just a wish. It’s understandable, and it’s fair, and it does not come at the cost of her real sister. I sometimes wish I had a sister more like me, it doesn’t mean I’m thinking anything negative about my real sister.

                  She also fantasizes about having a daughter that looks like Arya, and tells herself that Arya is home safe playing with their baby brothers to console herself.

                  She’s sweet enough to console Tommen, Sandor Clegane, Robert Arryn, to get Lancel Lannister to a maester, to comfort the women during Blackwater, to intercede on behalf of the beggar woman during the bread riots, to save Dontos, to display a long list of acts of kindness.

            • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

              Re: “she’s a Stark” – what I don’t get about this argument (that she should be held to a higher standard because of her ancestry) is that it’s just plain not interesting for an entire family to be innately good and never have selfish impulses, from birth. None of the Stark are actually perfect; Ned comes the closest, but he’s also the oldest, which gives him the most time to figure out life and learn what’s most important.

              In general, I think readers have been somewhat brainwashed, through an overwhelming amount of fiction, with the idea that a girl who wants to fight rather than be a lady is inherently “acting good”, and that a girl who has no interest in physical pursuits is denying nature (because traditional masculine attributes = natural, what people want to do/have unless they’re socialized otherwise or are making an effort). Liking to sew and dance and play an instrument and be “useless” (although sewing is an incredibly useful skill in a time and place where people need to make their own clothing) actually tends to be seen as a negative trait, even though it sounds silly when you think about it – but in historical fiction, how often is the heroine bad at these things, how often is her mother portrayed as unfair for forcing her to learn them, how often is the rival good at them or content to do them? So Arya’s violent tendencies and lack of courtesy/people skills are not looked at in a critical light, even though they are big problems in the setting, and a “girly girl” gets immediate suspicion until she performs some especially good deed, maybe a boyish one, to prove that she’s worth it despite what we’re trained to take as hints to badness. Oh, and Heroines don’t care about romance for its own sake, they have adventures and then whatever guy they’re adventuring with ends up in a relationship with them – while Non-heroines sigh over boys and dream about getting married. It’s kind of crazy when you think about it. But when you read enough books and reader reactions while keeping the idea of these rather ridiculous good/bad traits in mind, it really becomes striking, regardless of whether or not individual readers are sexist. (Which is my way of saying that I’m not saying your individual dislike of Sansa is sexist, in case you thought I was going there.) It’s very, very rare that a girl with the “bad” traits gets to be a viewpoint character.

    • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

      Actually, for a LONG time, Sansa believed that her sister was back home, safe at Winterfell, FYI. It’s mentioned multiple times. She doesn’t believe that Arya is dead until after the Red Wedding. But before, there’s this long passage about how she’s thinking about how her sister is back at Winterfell playing with their brothers. Seriously. It’s a whole thing.

      She represses a lot of her feelings and rewrites incidents to stay somewhat sane. Such as with the Unkiss (where she reimagines a brutal sexual assault and romanticizes it). She does this with the Trident incident. At first, she DOES hate Joffrey and Cersei, then she does her whole “rewriting history” thing and blames Arya. Only later does she remember the true events. It’s a hallmark of her character.

      The thing is about marrying Joffrey— If she were to accept that he is cruel and nasty, she also has to accept the fact that a) She will likely be tied to him for the rest of her life. Betrothals were considered fairly binding and marriage was legal ownership and b) That her father sold her to an outrageously cruel boy. Her choices were basically a) Process the idea that her family sold her off to be the property of a boy who beats up little girls or b) rewrite events and take his charms (and in the first book, there are multiple points where Joffrey is legitimately charming towards her) as a sign that he will be the husband she dreams of.

      If you were eleven years old, which would you pick?

      I’m not saying it’s the best way to deal with things, or even the healthiest thing, but it’s her headspace. She rewrites events in order to endure. Martin has come out and pointedly said that the loss of Lady (which is when she starts doing this rewriting history thing) messed up her head. It’s not because she’s stupid or cruel. She’s literally mentally trying to cope. If she were to accept the reality of things after the Trident, it would mean a HUGE psychological break for her in which she’d have to somehow process the fact that she has a future of being owned by a psychopath ahead of her, and that her father agreed to make that her future.

      Does that change the reality of things? No, not at all. And she is forced to face the truth with Ned’s death. After which she retreats within herself even more, has to endure constant abuse, and takes certain chances to get the fuck out of dodge. (However, she does readily admit to what truly happened to the Tyrells and mentions the death of “the butcher’s boy” as reasoning for why Joffrey is a monster). It’s why she tells herself for a long time that Arya is safe at home with Bran and Rickon. It’s why she tells herself that the Hound kissed her instead of forcing her onto a bed and holding a knife to her throat.

      Sansa doesn’t spend tons of time thinking at length about her family because of the emotional toll it takes. “She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked.”

      In order to survive, she has to parrot the “my brother is traitor” mantra and pretend to be “loyal” (just as she is secretly plotting an escape with Dontos). The way for her to do that is by repressing herself, so she tries not to think of her family. But she does love her family, including Arya. She fantasizes about having a daughter that looks like her sister. She fondly remembers her snowball fight with her sister. She dreams about her. When she finally gets a subtle period to mourn (making the snow castle), she reflects on Arya the most (fondly).

      Arya thinks about her family more and channels her anger and sorrow into fighting physically. The environment she’s in REQUIRES her to be physically aggressive to survive. Unfortunately, it’s also a damaging psychological outlet in that it makes her progressively more numb to violence and killing. But it’s also an environment and way of doing things that allows her an outlet (such as it is) for intense, negative emotions.

      Both girls are intensely abused and both of their psychological states are EXTREMELY messed up. But it’s not because they’re stupid or vicious. Arya has learned to kill and has come to have almost no emotions about killing someone (when she first does it, it takes a huge emotional toll on her, but by “Mercy”, she can just sort of do it and is like, “Eh.”) And it’s not because she’s a bad person, or because she’s a psychopath, or anything like that. It’s because she’s needed to kill and be violent to survive. Likewise, Sansa holds back her emotions, feelings, and thoughts because that’s what she’s needed to do to survive.

      Oh, and for the record, during the trident thing, Sansa was drunk. And in context, the incident takes on a different light. I’m not denying Joffrey wasn’t cruel or horrible. But it’s likely that even if Sansa had told the whole truth, he’d not been punished at all. Arya was a little noble girl playing at swords with an older lowborn boy. When Sansa and Joffrey come upon them, Mycah has hit Arya.

      “That’s my lady’s sister you were hitting, did you know that?”

      Joffrey obviously didn’t give a shit about Arya and was using that as an excuse to let a little sadism out, but it would have been a GREAT excuse to use in that social context. Seriously. Arya was a little lady according to the eyes of Westeros, and automatically it would have been considered inappropriate for any “butcher’s boy” to even think of DARING to play with her anywhere but outside of Winterfell. Take the fact that he was brandishing a stick at her and had hit her, well… Truth is, if a random court guard had come by and seen that, chances are that Mycah might have ended up dead anyways. I’m not kidding. That’s the society they lived in.

      So all the little shit Joffrey had to do if Sansa had repeated Arya’s story was say, “I attacked him because I saw him hitting my lady’s sister! Waah!” And then Cersei would have likely had Arya pull up her sleeves and likely there’d have been a bruise on her hand. Case closed. Joffrey was being chivalrous and the little brat Arya and her crazy wolf attacked him for it. Keep in mind the fact that almost at once, before the hearing, Cersei already sent Jaime out to find Arya and cut off her hand. (The penalty for attacking royalty).

      Would Sansa saying that her sister and Mycah were playing have mattered? No, not really. It didn’t matter that Lady wasn’t anywhere near the fight and she still died.

      Arya was breaking a LOT of rules when she was playing with Mycah. She was consorting with a lowborn kid. She was playing at swords. She had gone far from the traveling party (it’s mentioned that the girls were commanded not to do this and Arya did it every day anyways). She was also pretty rude to Joffrey and Sansa before they even said/did anything. Trust me, no matter what Sansa said, chances are that Joffrey would have gotten away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist (because he’s prince, Arya’s a rule breaker, and Mycah was a butcher’s boy).

      There was one thing she might have tried to effect: whether or not the boy who would someday legally own her came away from the incident hating her guts. And trust me, if that happened, NO ONE was going to end up better off. Arya and Sansa both would likely have been in huge danger, ESPECIALLY once Joffrey became king.

      If Joffrey DIDN’T come away from this incident hating Sansa, then Sansa wouldn’t be the only one better off. Arya would have too.

      Now, am I saying that all of this was consciously running through Sansa’s head in exacting detail before she was brought forward to testify? No. The girl was drunk and terrified and confused. However, the fact that Joffrey was her future husband, the social guidelines of her society (which Sansa WAS more or less an expert in even then), the fact that Joffrey was prince and his mother the queen, and the fact that yes, it WAS in everyone’s best interest if the Lannisters didn’t hate her, WOULD be there.

      Yes, Sansa wanted Joffrey to be a Prince Charming and for things to be lovely and pretty and good. She wanted to be a princess/queen. But that doesn’t mean she hated her sister or wanted to betray her. Sansa EASILY could have lied and said that Joffrey told the whole truth. And likely, that would have worked out better for her. But she didn’t.

      Sorry, but there are VERY valid, practical reasons for Sansa to want to play to both sides. Especially since at that time, she didn’t register how bad Joffrey was. She doesn’t know everything we know about him. And when she did glimpse his cruelty, her head was “fuzzy from the wine”. Yes, during the incident, she saw Joffrey attack Mycah, but Sansa is a person who constantly doubts herself and wants, nay NEEDS to keep this boy happy. We see it even before the fight, when she tries to speak up to keep him happy, drinks to keep him happy, pretends to love riding to keep him happy. She’s been trained from birth to accommodate men, especially royalty, her future husband, and Joffrey is both. For her own safety and possibly the safety of those she cares about, she can’t have him hate her. Before the fight happened, Joffrey spent the day being sweet and charming and the ideal prince. She hasn’t seen anything beyond a drunken incident to indicate that Joffrey isn’t what she wants him to be. Some day, this boy will not only own her, but also be king. As we’ve seen, Joffrey would/could have all the authority in the world to abuse/brutalize her if he wished. What would him hating her accomplish? It would just make sure she’s in for a world of hurt and have no chance of ever tempering his actions, influencing him, or even being safe from him.

      So yeah, she claimed not to remember. Then she altered the events in her head later to stave off the idea that Joffrey, her future husband and king, was really the type of person who enjoys attacking little kids.

    • onegirl , Direct link to comment

      “Arya is a (lovely) brat, but she´s her sister, and Joffrey just some lad that she just met. ”
      ARGH! ARGH! This isn’t fucking 21st century Europe! It’s Westeros! When a woman gets married, she is sent to live with her husband’s family! When she marries, the man becomes her Lord, she has to swear fealty and obedience, and she may never see her family again in years! Sansa is betrothed to Joff, she CANNOT get out of it! As far as Sansa knows, Catelyn is a Stark, not a Tully.

      Urgh. I hate when they judge the character as if she lived in our society and not hers. It was ARya who was misbehaving.

  • Maria Eduarda , Direct link to comment

    Hm, interesting point of view. However, Sansa is basically hated in the first place for not letting her sister be who she wants to be or to do anything to see her prince charming, play against her sister when she knew Arya was right, at that moment lying wasn’t truly necessary since Robert was still king.
    Even though, the hatred lowers after she is held captive (if it was arya she wouldn’t be caught hahaha or if she was she would have died honorably standing on what she believes is right) and begins playing their games. She endures really, but she does not even a single attempt of changing her situation.
    Sansa was a brat at first with childish thoughts of choosing boys over her sister and bullying her, but she grew stronger.
    People are still hung up on the fact that she was an idiot.

    Ladylike manners are not looked down by the readers, like Catelyn Stark, she is truly a lady and when she needs to be she can also lead and make decisions. So your point is irrelevant.

    And yes, the idea of her being what they want is deemed as weak, fragile, manipulative, because it is. There is no strenght in that. At least at first when she wasn’t thinking properly.

    • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

      “She endures really, but she does not even a single attempt of changing her situation.”

      Except all those times that she totally does.

  • delilah , Direct link to comment

    Sansa in my opinion is the most interesting character and the most realistic with a good; solid psychology. She evolves. She is a dreaming little girl who try to survive. I think she is far away realistic than her sister Arya.

    • runes , Direct link to comment

      ditto, i love how human she is. i feel like she never set herself up to be perfect even if she was a shallow 11 year old and even then i liked her from the start i could just tell she was going to get a lot of character development and i love when that happens. i feel like the characters who start as shallow and mean spirited- but not sociopathic always have some of the most interesting development especially when they realize they are wrong- which sansa does on multiple occaisions (ie they all say i’m stupid, i think they are right- she actually says that she sees her faults) this is what makes her so interesting to me shes my fave POV character!

      • jo , Direct link to comment

        In what way is SANSA mean spirited? Unlike arya. I don’t seewhere you all see shallowness in her either

  • Steven , Direct link to comment

    I can’t tell you how much I agree with your assessment. Sansa is a very well-thought out lady who shows that being a feminist doesn’t have to translate into donning armour.

    Martin is a genious, because he dispels all sorts of myths – what courage is really about, and how the reality of stories are often bloodier than real life.

    I think that Sansa is a lady to watch in this series.

  • critical thought , Direct link to comment

    This is just so extremely biased it’s unbelievable… Your assumptions really need some critical thought, and this needs revision. For starters: “Worse, it brings the reader’s hatred down on her, because even though women are told they are only “good” if they fit into this role,” YOUR hatred or a few other readers hatred does not mean EVERYONE feels that way. While I do agree Sansa is portrayed with the characteristics in the books which you mentioned, it is not true that everyone sees her as some poorly misunderstood strong surviving woman. Nor can it be ignored that her ability TO SURVIVE is not solely her own. The vast majority of the individuals wielding power in Westeros want to use her, and as such want to ensure she stays alive. That is not some unique gift she possess.

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      As you could probably understand from this post, I don’thate Sansa. However, many readers do and express it quite vehemently, which caused me to try and consider why. You’re contradicting yourself here, by the way. You claim I think everyone hates Sansa, and then claim I think everyone sees her as a strong, misunderstood young woman. It cannot be both. Some people hate Sansa, and some people, like me, think she is strong and a survivor… even though she’s something of a pawn to the Lannisters, she is not that valuable, and they could easily have killed her if she stepped out of line.

  • Nimmermaer , Direct link to comment

    To be honest I hated Sansa when she betrayed Aria for Joffrey, but I grew rather fond of her after she had to endure so much and learned from her past mistakes. A wonderfully written character for sure, worthy of your articulate defense.

    • Bia , Direct link to comment

      She is or was hated because people expect more from her because she’s a Stark. Everybody hate Joffrey’s and Ramsay’s guts but they are just so evil that there’s no point in comment on it. There is no controversy, no reason to discuss on such characters so you don’t feel the hate. On the other hand Sansa, along with the Hound and many others behave in ways that arouse ethical arguments.

    • stonebiscuit , Direct link to comment

      I’m not convinced “betrayed” is the proper word here. All she said was she didn’t remember. Given that she was drunker than she’d ever been at the time of the event, and the farce of a “trial” (seriously, Robert Baratheon, you are a giant coward and I hate you) was in the middle of the night, I think we can reasonably assume there’s a degree of truth there.

  • RVCBard , Direct link to comment

    Thank you thaThank you thank you for this!

    I’ll admit that at first Sansa’s simple-mindedness got on my nerves, but as I learned more about the world she lived in and really see what she was up against, I started to understand her better, and now I root for her.

    Sansa’s situation is unique in that she has little direct power of her own. She doesn’t have wealth, an army, or political connections she can count on. She can’t fight or ride dragons or run away to live in the woods. So how does she survive when surrounded by people who will not hesitate to use her for their own schemes regardless of what it would cost her? She doesn’t let on how much she knows. She tells them what they want to hear. She goes out of her way to present herself as posing no threat, and that no one would have anything to gain by harming her.
    As a Black woman, I can identify with this. Chances are, it was the Sansas among my ancestors who are largely responsible for me being here and being able to type this comment.

  • Sara , Direct link to comment

    Thank you for writing this! As I read the first book, I found Sansa to be very irritating with her dreams of chivalrous princes and fancy princes, and that she was so obsessed with Joffrey and completely blind to the fact that he was a sadistic psycho and not the kind prince of her dreams. But, I knew she would eventually grow out of it – she was eleven years old, and naive. I was a naive 11 year old girl once too, and made stupid decisions sometimes, and tried to tell myself that stupid boys were the man of my dreams too.
    Sansa has gradually really grown on me as her story progressed, but since it was such a gradual process I could never really articulate why. Your article really articulated it for me!
    I had also been annoyed by her thinking that Cersei really liked her and whatnot, and was afraid that Sansa was, in some way, no longer a Stark, but just another pawn of the Lannisters or of Littlefinger’s. But when she built that little replica of Winterfell in the snow, I realized that despite the front she puts up for people like Cersei, Joffrey, or Littlefinger in order to survive and not get herself killed, she is still a Stark! THE NORTH REMEMBERS!

  • Rhaego , Direct link to comment

    I think you oversimplify the reasons behind the vitriol towards Sansa. As you stated, she starts off as an elitist brat, yet you blame Ned and Cat. While they both deserve a share of the guilt, it would seem that the other Stark children learned to love their brother Jon, yet only Sansa spits on him like her mother. She also didn’t think it was unchivalrous of Joff to attack her little sister and an unarmed butcher’s boy with a sword.
    Until that point, I only disliked her, because nothing in her personality was relatable. What makes her universally hated is her lying in favor of Joffrey, which leads to (imo) the saddest death in the series. She was always less of a Stark than the others, but after Lady’s death, I wanted her out of the books. In my mind, she was irredeemable after that.

    You may see her as a brave victim who overcomes torment or a benevolent heroine coming into her own. I see a brat who was victimized by a sociopath, then escaped by landing right in another sociopath’s web. And she’s not even that sweet. If anything she is pulling Robin’s strings so he is less obnoxious. She doesn’t love him. She nannies him.

    I could entertain the idea that SHE is a sexist, because she hates that
    Arya is dirty and tomboyish. All women would be forever doomed to the bedchamber if the Sansas had their way.

    • Eric , Direct link to comment

      I agree with this. When reading her PoV through the 4 books (she isnt in the 5th) I am constantly disappointed in her non-action.

      Personally, I dislike her only because she lets the worst people use her to their own ends. She has been used often, but continues to believe liars even whilst knowing they lie. Then when she is betrayed she is surprised.

      I am surprised she is still alive to be honest.

  • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

    Aaaah, it was so nice to come across this post! I started out with the show, and was immediately on Sansa’s team because my youth was so full of books about oppressed tomboys who wanted to wield swords that I assumed I was supposed to hate nasty collaborative ladylike Sansa; I was reassured that this was not the case, and then when I started reading was pleasantly surprised at how even-handed the narration was with them.

    But then I was unpleasantly surprised to see how violently people hate her. I do somewhat understand the argument that the evilevilevil characters are so bad as to not really be worth talking about, but the thing is that I can’t get away from the idea that if Sansa hated dresses and needlework like Arya, or were Bran’s older brother, her mistakes would get more sympathy and be seen as tragic rather than proof of some enormous, contemptible defect.

    I also have to wonder if the people who so vitriolically speak against her realize how wonderful it is for some of us to see a character who both is traditionally feminine/kind/good and has a viewpoint and a lot of strength. Those two sets do not often go together, especially in fantasy – a traditionally feminine character is likely to be a villain, or to be weak apart from, perhaps, a single defining moment of strength.

  • evan , Direct link to comment

    Sorry, i have to disagree. Being a delusional swooning teenager does not mean she was raised to betray her family. This is why people dislike Sansa so much. She didn’t stick up and support arya when she was accused of attackin joffrey. This results in sansa’s wolf dying, yet she still blames arya for it all.

    Secondly, if you read closely, Ned stark had his escape from kings landing planned out, but Sansa went and told Cersei that they were leaving the next day which ultimately god Ned captured and killed.

    Yes sansa may grow braver etc etc, but ultimately she doesn’t change as a character because she fails to accept responsibility for everything bad that happened to her and her family at Kings landing.

  • Rafael , Direct link to comment

    I disagree. I don’t like Sansa but I also don’t think only the “manly” female characters, such as Arya and Brienne, are interesting in the series. For example one character that I especially appreciated was Oleanna Tyrell, who is not a warrior, but is able to manipulate man and control her House without taking her son out of the game. The same can be said about Margaery Tyrell.
    Other character that is not stupid but don’t lose her female way is Catelyn Stark.

    • Jo , Direct link to comment

      Margaery HAD said grandmother to train her since probably day one. and she’s not the political genius the show portrays her as, in the books I mean. Margaery has also been shown to be not only very spoiled but not always so clever herself and heavily reliant on Olenna and her brother.

      as for Olenna, LOL are you seriously comparing a shrewd old rich lady with years of experience in the Game to a little girl? honestly?

      as for Cat, do you really want me to post all the hate people have for her?

  • k-m , Direct link to comment

    Absolutely. Initially Sansa is just a young girl, and naive and selfish and so on, but when she is on her own at Kings Landing, she is amazing, learning to survive in an extremely hostile environment which can be just as lethal as any battle field, and which is dangerous not only to yourself but your family and friends as well. I think few people would have the strength and talent to navigate that situation, whether in the series or real people.
    Even thinking about her situation makes me want to explode, I don’t think I could successfully live in it.

  • jayme , Direct link to comment

    Urgh, what the hell? I am crying so hard right now. People need to not underestimate what an asset kindness is. I need this queen.

  • Siofra Corry , Direct link to comment

    Excuse me? Why on earth are we focusing on the fact that Sansa is a pre-teen girl? As a preteen, I was never that shallow.

    Sansa Stark transforms into an amazing character…she get’s strong..but here’s the thing…she only did so because she had to.

    Sansa Stark’s naivety is not what made me annoyed at’s the fact she started it as a spoiled brat. Sansa grew up being good at everything,and basically hating her sister because she didn’t fit in with her narrow idea of the world. “As wicked as Arya”.
    What about the incident at the trident? Sansa didn’t stand up for her sister, and then blames Arya for Nymeria’s death.

    Sansa is also shallow…she loves Joffrey at the start of book one for being beautiful, despite him showing his psychopathic tendencies.And it’s pretty clear that her problem with both the Hound and Tyrion is their appearances.

    The idea that any of these traits are feminine is idiotic…infact, that any traits are female are idiotic. Sansa is flawed, like all other characters….but this has nothing to do with her or her sex, or the fact that she is girly…it’s just that her negative traits are rather annoying,and seemingly inactive. It’s because we don’t like screaming at a character…we like them to be superhuman.

    Sansa Stark grows up a lot..but she remains shallow. Not because she was an 11 year old girl..but because she is just shallow.

    • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

      infact, that any traits are female are idiotic.

      I think you’re missing the point there. Nobody here seriously believes that traits belong to one gender or the other – but there are traits that we are socialized to see as feminine/masculine, that many people don’t think about too hard. Think about the many things that get “like a girl” added on the end: throwing/running badly, crying, gossiping, screaming. All women aren’t prone to those, and all men aren’t necessarily free from them, but people unthinkingly make that association.

      More positively, people tend to associate being nurturing, compassionate, sensitive, and intuitive and avoiding direct conflict with women. Physical aggression, strength, and action, however, are often associated with men. You end up with a strange correlation where both people who don’t think at all about these things or pick up on them consciously find characters with “masculine” traits more interesting than characters with the “feminine” traits (and if you haven’t seen this, you haven’t looked very deeply into this fandom), and many people who tend to talk about feminism and fiction and the way that female characters can get boxed in with the “feminine” traits and completely excluded from “masculine” ones, who focus on the “masculine” traits as the ones all characters need to have … and then you end up with these pariah-like “feminine”-traited female characters that get a lot of hate for not being active. If that’s not your beef with Sansa, the essay’s probably not about you.

      I really don’t think Sansa was ever a brat. She didn’t throw tantrums, she didn’t manipulate people – in the show they made her rather more insulting and self-centered, but in the book her conflict with Arya was because Sansa was just naturally the good little lady.

    • Lex494 , Direct link to comment

      Call me crazy, but I think her problem with the Hound is the fact he’s drunk half the time he’s awake and he’s walking around talking about how great it is to kill people and that she should die if she can’t protect herself. And her problem with Tyrion is that he’s a Lannister.
      Yes, she focuses on their appearances too, but hell, every freking woman would prefer a handsome guy to a man without half a face and no ear or an ugly dwarf with no nose.

    • Jo , Direct link to comment

      You aren’t all preteen girls.

      That doesn’t make her shallow, unlike you finding people attractive makes *you* shallow too. She is surprised he’s angry with her but what can she do? he’s going to be the king and even as a noblewoman she lacks the power to stand up to him without getting in trouble herself.

      She didn’t stand up for Arya? No kidding. She also didn’t stand up for Joffrey. She took a neutral position because thanks to her idiotic little sister, she was forced into a pretty awkward position. If she tells what Joffrey did, she’s basically calling the son of the realm’s most powerful family a liar (which he is) and a jerk and bye-bye marriage proposal. if she makes Arya look bad, not only does Arya get in BIG trouble, so does her family, and STILL say bye to the marriage.

      Why don’t you put any blame on Arya? Was it Sansa who attacked Joffrey? Sure, she had good reason to, but it was also stupid and impulsive and she was incredibly naive to not see anything wrong with whacking the crown prince in the head with a stick. I could also add the fact that Joff had been, um, trying to get her drunk. She notes that the wine “was making her dizzy”.

      “basically hating” lol says YOU. YOU hate HER, which makes you hypocritical here. Sansa resents her sister being a little barbarian (rightfully so- she hardly tried to ever act like a lady like she was supposed to and got away with it all the time). Then we have perfect little Mary Sue Arya constantly belittling her sister’s interests, going so far as to call them stupid.

      You people don’t know how to read well, do you? This is all your own biased opinion, next to nothing, if anything, coming from the actual books.

    • afanaro , Direct link to comment

      “As a preteen, I was never that shallow.”

      well, shame for all of us then, not having YOU as the eldest daughter of The Starks. Bloody hell.

  • voodooqueen126 , Direct link to comment

    Sansa is actually my favourite character.
    I think Sansa secretly believed that Arya was spoilt: ie that Arya got away with not trying hard at embroidery, singing and got to behave however she wanted to. For instance Sansa who loved Joffrey (I personally was in love with someone as unpleasant as Joffrey till I was 16) had to give him whilst Arya got to bring her ‘stupid dancing master’ with her back to Winterfell. Ned also explained to Arya that they were in terrible danger… Where as Ned just took Sansa’s obedience for granted.
    It reminds me of the prodigal son, and I have always hated that story.

    • Jo , Direct link to comment

      that’s a very good point I had never even noticed, and apparently neither has anyone else! Arya really was the more spoiled one. Even ignoring the Syrio thing, she was obviously given a lot more freedom than Sansa, who was held up as the example, as older sisters typically are- you know, she’s supposed to be the responsible one who keeps her little siblings out of trouble. And she does, but Arya is allowed to do whatever she wants and I don’t blame Sansa for resenting that, any kid would.

  • Lex494 , Direct link to comment

    I love Sansa! And I love her partially because she is not perfect. yes, she has flaws. Yes, she acts like a spoiled naive little girl at first. But the way she handles herself in King’s Landing is just remarkable. Arya would’ve had herself killed within a week, but Sansa just kept holding on. They humiliated her in every possible way and she still managed to get herself together every freaking time. I especially love the scene where they give her a choice of either marrying Tyrion with dignity or being dragged there and forced to do it. And then Tyrion says something like: “I know I’m not what girls dream of, but I’m not Joffrey” and she’s like “You’re not” and goes on to marry him. I truly believe she would’ve been totally different with him if he wasn’t a Lannister. I think she could’ve learnt to see past his looks and love him eventually if he wasn’t Joffrey’s uncle, Cersei’s brother. Plus, the Hound hated him and she kinda trusted Sandor’s judgement.
    I think she’s grown into a very intriguing character and I’m really curious to know what happens to her later. I think she’s actually started getting kind of crazy, passing as Alayne for way too long, but that makes her even more interesting. Well, she’s never gonna be a warrior like Arya, but she might become a pretty clever Game player.

  • Manawyddan , Direct link to comment

    I originally dislike Sansa for her lying about what happened between Arya and Joffrey, and her betrayal of her father to Cersei. But what made me detest her was that she never took responsibility for her actions. I am convinced that she still blames Arya for Lady’s death. If there had ever been a scene in which she sat and regretted the consequences of HER OWN actions, I’d have had a very different view.

    I have come to care for her more in her latest chapters, and actually I have softened my view of her a bit on the show, where the actress is so good at looking pathetic and desperate.

    I also, originally, hates the way she treated Tyrion, but when I reread the book I changed my mind. She actually was fairly gentle with him … but she had been burned before trusting Lannisters, and just because he had been nicer than the others didn’t mean she was going to accept him with an open heart.

    • Eric , Direct link to comment

      Fairly gentle? She was false submissive, scared, and loathing. She wouldn’t kneel to be at the same height as him during their wedding. He didn’t force himself on her and treated her with respect. She subtly made him look weak and useless in every situation. Tyrion saw that all she was concerned in was looks and not character.

      This is Sansa’s flaw. She believes in pretty faces and pretty words. She seems to have difficulty figuring out the difference between noble words and noble deeds.

      She learns at the expense of other peoples lives it seems.

      • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

        But why should she be kind to Tyrion? She’s forced into a marriage with him, and although he might be kind enough to her, she’s had Lannisters be kind of her before, and that didn’t exactly end up well. She’s learned NOT to trust in pretty faces and pretty words, and especially not to trust the Lannisters. If she wasn’t scared, that would be very strange, and if she wasn’t false-submissive, she’d be dead. No wonder she also loathes her situation. Who wouldn’t?

        • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

          Sansa trusts someone who puts in effort to seem trustworthy: “Why does she trust everyone? She’s so stupid.”

          Sansa doesn’t trust someone who only gives her a little reason to trust him: “It’s so dumb of her not to be trusting, he could help her.”

  • Aurore , Direct link to comment

    Sorry for the possibly mistakes, I’m french and I found the article so interesting that I enbeded me even with my poor english level ^^
    I’ve never loved Sansa because I thought she was such naive, self-centred, completely blind in front of the real personality of Joffrey-Charming-Prince, and unable to think and see what is good or wrong. But now I’m advanced in the story, I’ve changed my mind. I thought she would betray her family but finally, she defended her father with loyauty and sincerity ( before I was the feeling that she wasn’t honest like the other Starks ), at least during his dad’s custody. Then she is in the worst possible position than the others, because they can act beeing loyal to their family, according to their opinions, while she is stuck between the 2 sides, a treater for the 2, and she has to be very careful in all her acting… Even if I don’t really feel sympathy for her, i understand she is in a very delicated situation, and her attitude suprised me. In fact… she’s not that stupid ! She denies her family in front of the Lannisters and the court, but she’s not hypocrite. She manages to save her life, without totally betraying her family, and she has been very clever because she has the perdect attitude given the situation. She’s also extremely strong ( if my future husband tried to kill me in order to have fun in front of the whole court… I don’t know what I would do ) because she’s always impassive, keeping a cold head and her dignity. I dunno, maybe I have this impression because we don’t see that much her feelings, her doubts – though it’s why I feel no sympathy for her… However, maybe Sansa isn’t a great warrior-boy-looking, but she fights with other arms, arms of a Lady. Though I think it is the force of Game of Thrones : the female characters can have a strong and respected role of clever women, and still be ladies ( like Catelyn, who is always listended and respected, Cersei who has a decisive politic position…)
    But their are noble and well born… the case of the women of the people, the prostitutes is more complicated. They are considerated as things and mistreated – sometimes I’ve been shocked and afflicted by some pictures, but maybe it’s just realistic… ?

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      Thanks so much for taking the time to comment! I love the complexity of the female characters in the series too… and how you can have characters like Arya and Brienne, who do break the traditional feminine mold, but also characters like Sansa, who appear weak and foolish at first, but have a lot of inner strength that comes out over the books.

  • Kim , Direct link to comment

    I just discovered the site and I’m glad you posted this. I recall a comment I believe in Season 1 by Tyrion about how Sansa is surviving in King’s Landing, so I’m very interested in the relationship these two will forge and how she will develop out of it, since I like both characters (although I’m with you, Arya and Brienne are my favorites).

  • Sabrina , Direct link to comment

    I couldn’t agree more! Both in the books and in the series, Sansa is probably my favorite female character. Even in the worst moments, she uses her smiles and nice words to survive in the most difficult place of Westeros: the royal court, in King’s Landing. Of course, Arya is great, she’s completely amazing and I still love her chapters. But Sansa is the one that most evolve, suffer more transformations, and always becoming better. Dany (who, I admit, I really hate since the first book, for no reason) changes to a khalessi, then to a queen, but lose her “raison d’être”, and her priorities. Brienne kinda act against her honor. Arya is the one who discover herself in a completely different place and situation, but are still lost, and (i think) being used.
    Ok, that’s all. Love you text.

    • Rhiannon , Direct link to comment

      Thanks so much for commenting and sharing your thoughts! (And your English doesn’t suck at all) 🙂

  • Women in fantasy - Page 63 , Direct link to comment

    […] likes her or not is a different story, I guess. Here's an interesting discussion of the character: In Defense of Sansa Stark | Feminist Fiction "With age came wisdom. Sometimes wisdom came with an ass kicking, too. And nothing could […]

  • Samuel , Direct link to comment

    I don’t dislike Sansa nor do I think her worse than any of the evil characters. I just would agree with one of the earlier posts that she makes decisions constantly that puts her in danger then whines about it when she finds herself stuck there. When she really should have told the truth to Robert about the attack which might have led him to take a more active role in training him to be a king, she chose to lie and when it came back to bite her in the ass she blamed Arya as much for the death of Lady as Arya blamed her for the death of her friend. Neither was correct in their blame but where Sansa wanted to blame Arya so she wouldn’t have to blame Joffrey.
    Sansa also betrays her family for someone who treats her like shit and threatens to rape and/or kill here several times. In the end when she realizes it she chooses to accept it and let events work themselves around her instead of taking an active role. In the end she shows herself to be not just annoying but weak. Which is not an assumption I come to based on gender but an observation of her character based on her actions. Again I do not hate her for it nor do I harbor any ill will towards her. I just consider her to be a rather weak character. I hope as much as anyone that she becomes stronger and takes a more active role in the story.

    • Chocolatepot , Direct link to comment

      The good news is: she does become stronger! You say she does these things “constantly”, but all your examples are from the first book.

      Stamina is strength. You say she’s passive and lets events happen around her – I say she uses her inner strength to endure and her intelligence not to put herself in more danger. It’s sad that much of fiction teaches us that the only way to be a strong character is to fling yourself about with a sword, but so it goes.

  • Ambaa , Direct link to comment

    Thank you. Sansa is the character I most relate to. I’ve always been a super girly girl and reconciling that to modern life is challenging. Like her, when I was young I was taught to believe in righteous, good men who would protect and shelter me. I didn’t rebel from that. I believed in it with all my heart even when it bit me in the ass.

  • APW Happy Hour! , Direct link to comment

    […] even begin to claim geek status: Even if you’ve never read A Song of Ice and Fire, this discussion on “strong female characters” is worth reading for its take on the way “girlie” behavior is so often seen as […]

  • Alia , Direct link to comment

    Thank you so so much for this great post, I have to say I could not agree more my husband will always tease me somewhat telling me that Sansa is stupid, etc. she believes anything etc. I’ve always felt she had some of the best qualities of both of her parents and has to be one of the strongest young female characters I’ve read; there were many times she could of chosen to end her life and yet she did not… even when she believed most of her family to be dead. She carried on it takes a survivor to go on when all it stacked against you and an even better character to still believe that good people can still exist. That is true courage to not become cynical, conniving and full of despair. I think that is one reason why I cannot have nothing but pity for Cersei as she chose her sex to try to control those around her and still hasn’t learned she has none and its her greatest weakness. Thank you for a great post I rarely ever comment on people essays.

  • Josh A , Direct link to comment

    Thank you for such an intelligent analysis of Sansa. It’s really infuriating to see so much hatred thrown against Sansa for mistakes she did in the first book, and basically rationalizing that everything bad that happens to her later on is well deserved punishment for her mistakes. No one deserves to be beaten and terrorized for being “naïve”, “immature”, or “passive”. I find it very interesting that so many fans LOVE Jaime Lannister’s redemption arc, yet are completely unwilling to give Sansa the benefit of the doubt. It’s a reflection of the sexism and double standards against women that still exist in our society today. In my opinion, Jaime throwing Bran out a window is one of the most heinous acts of the entire series, certainly worse than anything that Sansa did during the first book (which we can all agree, that the first book includes her most objectionable actions), yet Jaime gets a pass for trying to kill a child, while Sansa is the most heinous character that ever lived and gets blamed for her father’s beheading, which is something that Sansa could have NEVER anticipated. In fact, she tried to save him, and would have succeeded if Joffrey wasn’t such an impulsive, blood-thirsty, moronic jackass. Ned’s beheading is not Sansa’s fault. Blaming Sansa for it, basically implies that Joffrey and Cersei are blameless for it, which is ridiculous. Sansa also gets vilified for her treatment of Tyrion. I like Tyrion but she doesn’t owe him anything. His family massacred her family. Yet Tyrion fans, expect Sansa to throw herself at him because he is fan favorite Tyrion Lannister who can do no wrong. Sorry, but Tyrion is far from perfect and he willfully serves his family’s interest even though he’s perfectly aware of the kind of people they are. As far as Sansa knows, he’s as untrustworthy as the other Lannisters. Why is it then, that Sansa is the only one that gets criticized for going along with the marriage when she is a political hostage?? Tyrion doesn’t want to marry her either, but he does it anyway, yet the fans never call him weak, passive or stupid?? Funny, how the double standards never really work in favor of female characters, but they always work to justify a male character’s behavior no matter how questionable it is.

  • Wariya , Direct link to comment

    I admire Sansan’s tolerance, but staying in Westeros that long, the character should have learned something by now. There are plenty ways to be moral but not submissive.

    • Mark , Direct link to comment

      Actually, she has started learning. Her story in “A Feast For Crows” is all about her and Littlefinger interacting and her successfully being able to answer each “now, what have you learned?” question her twisted mentor asks her.

  • walter , Direct link to comment

    I “hate” Sansa because she’s always a pawn in someone else’s game. She began making Lady Killed to protect the prince who was about to dismember her younger sister and making the butcher’s boy killed. Then they beheaded her father, and she was forced to marry Joffrey; then he chose Margerey, and she has been manipuleted to make her marry Loras. Then she’s been forced to marry Tyrion, then Joffrey died and she immediatly decides to trust ser Dontos who brings her away and now she’s a pawn in littlefinger’s game, forced to marry robin, ops no, forced to marry Lord Peter Bealish. Has this girl ever determined one only event in her miserable life if not with silence? maybe “she’ll survive us all” like Tyrion once said to her, but wtf

    • Mirime , Direct link to comment

      Judging by your words, I think you never read the books, did you? Because the show minimized Sansa’s arc awfully compared to what it was in the books. I guess you are objecting to Sansa’s ‘lack of action’ if I’m understanding you correctly. The concept of passive resistance rings a bell? Sometimes you just gotta keep your head down and weather what’s happening around you. Sansa’s doing that and that is, in a way, more heroic and admirable than swinging a sword around.

  • Becca , Direct link to comment

    I love this post! I think that another reason people may dislike Sansa is the fact that she’s actually so realistic, and in many ways, she reflects our own notions of chivalry and knighthood right back at us. If ASOIAF is essentially a deconstruction of the medieval archetype, spitting back images of pointless violence, questions about blind honor, and scenarios in which the “bad guys” win, then we go through Sansa’s journey of having our childish ideals dissected in the most brutal ways.

    You know what they say: You dislike those most who remind you of yourself.

    Of course, Sansa is way braver, stronger, and cooler than I’ll ever be. I can’t wait to see where her arc takes her. Ideally she’ll become queen, everyone will love her, and she’ll marry Podrick. Because after everything she’s been though, she just needs to end up with a nice guy with a big dick…and an even bigger heart.

    • Bella Rieth , Direct link to comment

      I couldn’t agree with you more, not going to lie. I think Sansa is so brave in the situation that she’s put in because she never just gives in, the giving in is all an act, and you know what they say you can’t be brave without being scared first, because Arya isn’t scared of death or of anything much really, but Sansa is terrified of a lot of things(with good reason) and in that sense I think of Sansa as much braver than Arya.

    • afanaro , Direct link to comment

      “You know what they say: You dislike those most who remind you of yourself.”

      oh my God, totally agree on that.

  • Kat , Direct link to comment

    Jesus fucking Christ, stop equating assertiveness with masculinity and submissiveness with femininity. You’re not doing feminism any good by calling Arya and Brienne ‘masculine’ – it just reinforces gender stereotypes that we should be trying to get rid of in the first place. Sure, Arya might have taken offence to the term ‘lady’ for the social role that it implies, but she REPEATEDLY corrects people who mistake her for a boy; she doesn’t aspire to be masculine, she’s naturally stubborn and independent and doesn’t give a damn about the fact that it’s not what is expected of her. The two sole reasons for her pretending to be male after she flees from King’s Landing are not being recognised by people who want to kidnap her and not getting raped by all the men she’s travelling around with.

    I hated Sansa in the first season for being a stuck up high-class brat and putting her own whims before ethics, which is by no means inherent to 12 year old girls (however naïve and childish I was at that age, I would never have treated my own siblings the way she treated Arya when the Joffrey and Nymeria thing happened, and I know countless women who can say the same). Afterwards, seeing how sorry she felt for the whole ordeal, how she realised the Lannisters were terrible and how awful her situation got, I really couldn’t hate her anymore. Right now I see her as a victim of a bunch of horrible people that abused her and a fucked up patriarchal society that made her submissive; she really can’t be faulted for being terrified, feeling helpless and not knowing how to act, and she does indeed show strength in putting up with all the horrific shit around her. It’s pretty much impossible to get angry at her if you have an iota of compassion in your brain.

    Sansa gets all my sympathy, but don’t call submissiveness and believing in fairy tales feminine. These expectations shouldn’t even exist for women at all.

    • apricot , Direct link to comment

      I’m not sure why you’re taking the writer as making some grand gender essentialist statement. In our society and in Westeros, these traits are considered variously masculine and feminine. Pretending that pointing this out is setting feminism back is laughable.

      You clearly do feel for Sansa, and that’s why your own reasons for disliking her are not exactly relevant. There are people (many in this very comment section) who go “of course I don’t hate Sansa because she’s stereotypically girly! It’s because she’s such a brat and she never does anything!” when she is no longer at all bratty (though TBH I never found her very bratty in the first place). These are the people whose deeper motives are being speculated on in the article.

      If you have a problem with anyone, it ought to be with GRRM, who was very obviously setting the sisters up as masculine/feminine opposites. (Arya not wanting to be thought a boy has nothing to do with it at all.)

  • Bella Rieth , Direct link to comment

    I completely agree with you and I think that a lot of people hate on Sansa because they see her as “weak” and I think this is not only totally unfair but also totally unjustified. Because Sansa is not weak. Sure she’s not the typical version of what we’ve come to expect from a “bad-ass” female character, but that does not make her weak. Considering all the shit that she’s put thought, and she’s what? Thirteen, fourteen years old in the books and only a bit older in the show. She’s young and she trust people with an open heart and then to her eyes it seems that she gets betrayed by pretty much everyone. She gets taken captive by the people she thought would one day be her family and is then forced to watch her father die a horrible death by the same people, she then thinks that she is going to have to spend the rest of her life married to the same vile child that made her watch her father die, and who torments her on a daily basis. People say that she’s weak for not trying to get out, for not fighting back and for lying down and taking it? But what would you do, honestly in her situation, when you had seen what whose people were capable of doing. Some people say that she’s stupid for still trusting people so easily and for still being kind and for still caring. But no one ever says “hey isn’t it amazing that Sansa is still so nice after all that she’s been through. After growing up in a world like Westeros and having been forced to see all the things that she has” , because whatever these people have thrown at her, whatever they’ve made her feel, or see, or watch, Sansa Stark has remained kind. And she has continued to value things such as kindness, honour and beauty and some may think of that as naïve and childish, but I think it’s pretty brave actually. I have a lot of respect for Sansa Stark.

  • Caitlin , Direct link to comment

    People don’t dislike Sansa for being ‘feminine’ they dislike her for taking up for Joffrey and throwing Arya under the bus, for going to Cersei when she wasn’t suppose to and letting her know they were going to be taken away, for never doing anything to help herself and only praying for a knight to save, and for always doing what she’s told except for like twice. She acts shallow even after she realizes what the Lannisters are and she’s self entitled.

    • Mark , Direct link to comment

      Soooo, she’s hated for crimes in the first book that are far lesser than most characters’ crimes, and for “not doing anything to help herself” in a situation where she literally could not without risking death. OK then.

  • D.R.Sylvester , Direct link to comment

    Bravo. *Claps*.

    No seriously, I was googling “Sansa Stark most boring character” because I wanted to see if I was the only one who thought this. Instead I found this piece, and have to agree with you.

    Thing is, what she is doing (surviving and caring for those around her) IS really important. It’s just easy to lose sight of that (or in my case, not notice it). Eventually after all the fighting is done, it could be the most important thing of all, provided that she’s allied with the right people.

    I still wish that she could show a few more glimmers of brilliance in some respect, to make her more likeable. My sister was like Sansa, but she occasionally did something really cool like introduce me to a new band or explain something I was doing wrong. It’s the sparseness of these likeable, empathy building anecdotes and traits that make Sansa hard to follow for me, not her femininity.

    Great post!

  • Diego , Direct link to comment

    Sorry but no: I dont like Sansa for be a 11 girl, I dont like her because she chose her fairytail over her family

    First at all you said well: Its difitucl to get empathy for get because she is spoild and very feminie like, Robb and Jon comit mistake and have very dificult issue but they are more than that, instead Sansa was tied in her own worldview and them the rest of her history is how wrong she was.

    For example: the red wedding, yes he commit a BIG mistake in marry that girl, but the red wdding come more from Tynn making his move and the fact that Walter frey would break the most sacred rule for the sake of a petty vendetta

    Jon have entitemen(which is quite fair consider his status as a bastard and Catelyn general actitude about him) but why his dream of the night watch shatter he still make his own way and manage some succes, his problem come from his quite actitude about everything

    Sansa on the other hand belive so hard in this history that chose them over her own family, she trust her shining prince Joffrey over her own sister causing the death on her own wolf, and what happen? she blame her sister of course! and still go with Cersei because she still belive she is a good queen….she without wanting set of into another sept in Ned demise

    Another reason is about faceing their chose, Robb break his oath for another girl, but his screw by forces about him who take chance, Jon quite actituded get the best of him and cause his death in the guard….

    Sansa? she is just there, bouncing from one problem to the next: first Joffrey, them Cersei and now Littlefinger, she survives not by enduring since she is a stark princess in a castle full of Lannisters at the hands of Joffrey and Cersei, but by sheer luck: is pure luck that her position made her inmune, luck that let her marrige Tyrion, who a least care for her, luck that joffrey die in the purple wedding and falling in the hand of peter baylish….

    See?, she is delusional and by the time she figure out, is only luck that kept her alive while the rest die by their own chosie

  • MB , Direct link to comment

    Thank you so much for this post!

    I agree with everything you said and just want to add that another reason to liking her is that she’s the most realistic character (for me anyway).
    As much as I like to fantasize myself a hero that, placed in GOT world, will magically manage to get herself out of every bad situation, in reality I will be just as frightened and helpless as Sansa was.
    I can see myself doing exactly what she’s doing in order to survive, hopefully with the same grace and levelheadedness she possesses.

    All my friends that watch the show (and the one that read the books, besides me) look at me like I’m crazy when I admit that while liking others as well, Sansa is my favorite character.
    I spent hours on explaining why I like Sansa so much and why she’s not “pointless”, “boring” and “just not as COOL as XXX”.
    Today, I save my time and effort on arguing and simply provide the link to your article 🙂

  • Liz , Direct link to comment

    i can understand the girly pre teen defense but not when it comes with the cost of your fathers head. #somemistakesareunforgivable

    • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

      Good thing it didn’t, then. But go ahead and blame her for things that weren’t her fault. Ned had already spilled the beans to Cersei like a moron before Sansa went to her. That’s what got him killed. That, and Littlefinger. The biggest consequence, really, of Sansa’s actions was that she wasn’t snuck out of King’s Landing in time. And that STILL likely wouldn’t have happened regardless of what she’d done. Cersei had spies everywhere. Ned’s death was the fault of Ned, Littlefinger, and the Lannisters.

      And honestly? Even if Sansa’s actions DID somehow contribute to Ned dying (they didn’t, seriously. Cersei was exaggerating in order to take more credit for what happened than she deserved), REALLY? There was no way in HELL Sansa had any idea what could happen or what was going on.

      I guess all the mistakes that Ned made that led to him getting his own head cut off, his daughter taken hostage, his other daughter ending up more or less a child soldier, his wife and son ending up dead, Robert being killed, a damn war breaking out and the kingdom ending up in Joffrey’s hands are extra super-duper unforgivable, then, eh? I mean, at least Sansa has the teen girl defense. Ned was a damn adult who actually knew what was happening.

      You’d better hate Ned with a fiery passion if you’ve decided Sansa’s actions are “unforgivable”.

      #UseSomeCommonSense #DoubleStandards #TheAttitudesofMostSansaHatersTendtoBeMisogynyIncarnateandHypocriticalAsHell

    • M , Direct link to comment

      except she didn’t lop off Ned’s head.

      and no, all mistakes are forgivable.

      if they weren’t, I’d still hold a grudge against Arya for being such a spoiled bratty little troublemaker who goes around stabbing folks, or Dany or… well, there’s a laundry list of bad things she’s done.

    • rosehustle1 , Direct link to comment

      People are so weird. Sansa is 11 and Ned was in his 30’s. He is the adult, and he should have handled all of it better. Sansa was a kid and still wanted to salvage her courtly life. Yeah, she has seen Joffrey act terrible, Cersei order her wolf’s death, and she sees the death of the butcher’s boy at Lannister commands. But she has invested a lot into being Joffrey’s wife and this has always been taught to her as her role. I am sure she thinks that things will get better, and she will get Joffrey to love her again and everyone will get along. She is naive at this stage of her life, and children hope for the best even in the face of the worst. It is once her dad is dead that she realizes how much she miscalculated this whole thing. She really believed Joffrey would be merciful because as her ‘golden’ prince that was the role he was to play. This whole arc was to get her to start understanding the deceptiveness of appearances and how people will use you for their own gains. She learns her lesson in one of the most devastating ways imaginable. You would forgive a little 11 year-old you knew, if they did something like this because you would realize they are in like 6th grade and barely out of elementary school. You would forgive them because they don’t even understand half of what’s going on politically and what their parents are actually up to. I mean, whether in medieval times or now, an 11 year-old is not developmentally able to understand or handle all of these things like a grown up would.

      • Beatriz , Direct link to comment

        The problem I think here is that she saw Joffrey try to kill her sister. With a sword. And the mother of your boyfriend ordering the death of your pet is a big deal for a 11 years old. And blaming your grieving sister for the death of her friend who was murdered by the family of your boyfriend servant is pretty shitty too.
        The life and well being of your family should be more important than life style. Even for an eleven years old. And it was not that she would become
        There are many explanations on the web about her behaviour. She suffers from post traumatic stress, she suffers from stockholm syndrome… Maybe, she is young indeed, and we can’t judge her character for her behaviour at point, but she is certainly not normal. Not even considering her age and her culture. She is way over the top. She thought Jeyne Poole, her childhood friend who was just full of dreams as herself, annoying for crying and sobbing because there were dead men and blood all over the castle outside the room they were locked in.
        Her siblings, even the youngers, never showed such disconnection with reality and other’s emotions, not her parents.

        • Beatriz , Direct link to comment

          Oops. ‘And it was not that she would become destitute otherwise, she just wouldn’t be a princess.

          • WendyNerd , Direct link to comment

            Hey, Beatriz— maybe you should actually try reading the books and understanding the context of what you’re reading?

            “And it was not that she would become destitute otherwise, she just wouldn’t be a princess.”

            Actually, she likely still would have been— betrothals were hard to break. She just would have been the legal property of someone with a grudge against her.

            Claiming not to remember during the Trident thing is the best thing she could have done— for herself and for Arya.

            Here’s what would have happened if she’d told the truth
            1) Joffrey would have said “The lowborn boy was was playing with Lady Arya and hitting her with a stick. I was trying to defend her”
            2) Everyone would have accepted this because this world is shitty, elitist, and barbaric.
            3) Joffrey would have determinedly held a grudge against both sisters (this ends up happening anyways, but Sansa doesn’t know that)
            4) Joffrey would still someday be king and Sansa’s legal owner
            5) The Lannisters would target Sansa and make her life a living hell for being disloyal and by extension, Arya’s.

            Put the modern lens aside for a second. Telling the truth would have been futile and political suicide. Even if the betrothal was broken (it wouldn’t be), Joffrey would still be heir to the throne and someday exert huge influence. There is a long and storied history in Westeros of Kings targeting and abusing their queens and anyone they view as disloyal.

            She does not “throw Arya under the bus”, she says she doesn’t remember. She corroborates neither story. BY doing so, as far as Sansa knew, she’d still be able to establish a good relationship with, once again, her LEGAL OWNERS, and possibly smooth things over.

            This is not the case of a stupid girl with a crush and the desire to wear a glittery tiara. Royal betrothals and marriage were serious business and brides (in this case, Sansa) were property back then. And subject to the whims of their grooms and in-laws. The fact that her father called her up there to call the boy he betrothed her to a bully in front of his (murderous) family was an appalling display of negligence on Ned’s part.

            It’s not a matter of “lifestyle”, FFS, it’s a matter of personal safety.

            Oh, and if family comes first, why did Ned continue to have her betrothed to Joffrey?

            Oh, and as for “her siblings and parents never showed such disconnection”. Bull. Fucking. Shit they didn’t.

            When Robb gets the letter from Sansa that Cersei dictated to her, his reaction was “No mention of Arya. Damn the girl! What is wrong with her?!”

            I don’t know, Robb, maybe it’s that your sister is a hostage of people who are trying to kill your family? That might be it. Or her father, whose neglect of both his daughters (letting them run around KL and the wilderness without supervision) is outright criminal negligence. Then there’s Arya, who physically attacks her sister. Or Jon, who is so high up on his privileged high horse that he needs Donal Noye to knock some sense into him about how maybe the underprivileged didn’t get sword lessons and have a reason to resent you when you keep beating the shit out of them every day. Or Catelyn, who resents Mya Stone for being a bastard. Or thinks about Sansa’s forced marriage (and probable rape) to Tyrion as “Ew, she’ll have to have dwarf babies!” Or Robb who responds to the marriage as “Damn! I could have married her off to the Tyrells!” Arya, who often disdains and think unsympathetic thoughts about other war orphans she encounters.

            Also, let’s also remember that Sansa was fucking drunk at the time of the Trident fight.

            Here’s the fact of the matter: if Sansa recognized and accepted the fact that Joffrey truly was a dangerous bully, it meant also facing the fact that her father willingly signed her up to be the future property of a psychopath, that she has a future tied to child-abusing monsters, and that everything that she’s ever been taught is a lie.

            Also, she didn’t blame Arya for Mycah’s death. She later blamed Arya for Lady’s death. (It was Ned and Cersei’s fault, but Sansa is taught constantly not to trust adults and is outright encouraged to disdain her sister by her Septa.)

            Oh, and Arya was a dick to Sansa after the fight too. Sansa, who was also mourning the loss of her wolf (who, by the way, is an physical extension of Sansa’s fucking soul. Like with all the Stark kids and their wolves.)

        • Beatriz , Direct link to comment

          But she didn’t cause Ned’s death, neither his capture. He wasn’t leaving KL, and he was moving against Cersei and told her so and Joffrey decided to get him killed.
          She caused the capture of the Stark’s retinue, however. But I really can’t blame her in the slightest for this because Ned should have had the sense to take them away long ago, and shouldn’t have trusted Sansa with anything since the Trident thing. He should have paid more attention to his daughters and their dynamic. And should have talked to Sansa even more than he did to Arya.
          Sansa going to Cersei and spilling secrets is totally his fault.

    • Mark , Direct link to comment

      Sansa inadvertently aided in Ned’s CAPTURE, but NOT his death. His death is LITERALLY all Joffrey’s fault. Everyone else, even freaking Cersei, agreed that Ned ought to live if he admitted his treason and Joffrey led them all to believe he’d allow this to happen. Then, once Ned admits his treason, Joffrey out of nowhere gives the order to kill Ned anyway, against the protests of Varys, Sansa, Cersei, etc.

      Ned’s death only happened because Joffrey was more of a shit than anybody could have guessed. Even the book’s reader just knew he was a douche, they didn’t know until then that he was a complete psychopath.

      • Beatriz , Direct link to comment

        Joffrey was not a COMPLETE psycopath. Not yet, at least. He never learned the truth about his heritage, and truly believed he was Robert’s son, so when Ned tried to move against his claim he thinks he is a traitor of the worst kind, because Ned was his father’s best friend and Hand and father of his betrothed. What teenager with too much power wouldn’t be furious and get him killed?
        Not to mention the accusation of incest, which I don’t know if he was aware of.

  • Dani , Direct link to comment

    Sansa has replaced Dany as my favourite female character. In fact, her and Jon are tied for my favourite characters in the entire show. (I’m not familiar with book Sansa)

    It took me a little while to realise just how much substance Sansa has. Her circumstances have been pretty horrific overall but throughout it, she has remained steady as she possibly can (her reaction after Joffrey had her beaten), kept hope (with regards to marrying Loras) and claimed her agency back in whatever little ways she can such as convincing Joffrey not to kill one of his courtiers on his ‘nameday’ and discovering, then exploiting Ramsay’s insecurities about being a ‘bastard’

    Her character growth has been exceptional but it’s so subtle. The rape by Ramsay was something that made me very uncomfortable at first but then to me, the beauty about Sansa’s character is that whatever they throw at her, she remains steady and fights back in her own way. That is such a powerful, relatable and realistic message, especially to women who have experienced some of the violence and abuse that she has.

    It’s easy to say ‘oh, Arya would stab them all’ or ‘Dany would scorch them all with dragon fire’ but how much can many of us relate to that?

    Those kind of characters are great in their own way but Sansa Stark taught me a very powerful lesson about feminism and what it means to be a *strong* female.

    Sansa Stark is a survivor. For her to have gone through everything she has and still have moments of hope, to still be able to dream past tomorrow, to have the courage to question and even attempt to manipulate her dominant ‘master’, to still find the will to live….that is the kind of strength that grows from the inside out.

  • Grrarrggh , Direct link to comment

    In the first two books she is horrid. She’s obsessed with how people look and to whom they were born. She craps on her family left and right. Being eleven doesn’t excuse any of those things. She’s a shallow, not very bright person. She begins to perk up later on but she certainly is one of those who learns only through hard lessons. And often has to have same lesson pounded into her over and over before she gets it.

    • onegirl , Direct link to comment

      Excuse me? In the first book she’s 11-year-old selfish and bratty, and she cannot see reality. In the second book, the FIRST thing she does is defy Joffrey to save the life of a person she doesn’t know, by inventing lies in the exact moment.
      I get the first book , but the second? She starts the second book with a display of frakkin heroism.

What do you think?

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